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The case against conversational interfaces

julian.digital

141–150 of 225 posts

Re: The case against conversational interfaces

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can ask, but how much time do you want to spend answering stuff? Such dialog is probably nice for first time user, it is a nightmare for repeated user.

What prevents the system to remember your previous choices? Then it can assume you choice haven't changed, and propose you a solution that matches your previous choices. And to give the user control it just needs to explicitly tell the user about the assumption it made. In fact, a smart enough system could even see when violating the assumptions could lead to a substantial gain and try convincing the user that it may…

It still has to tell you. Visually in a form it's much faster. Similar reason why many people prefer a blog post over a video.

Talking is not very efficient, and it's serial in fixed time. With something visual you can look at whatever you want whenever you want, at your own (irregular) pace.

You will also be able to make changes much faster. You can go to the target form element right away, and you get immediate feedback from the GUI (or from a physical control that you moved - e.g. in cars). If it's talk, you need to wait to have it said back to you - same reason as why important communication in flight control or military is always read back. Even humans misunderstand. You can't just talk-and-forget unless you accept errors.

You would need some true intelligence for just some brief spoken requests to work well enough. A (human) butler worked fine for such cases, but even then only the best made it into such high-level service positions, because it required real intelligence to know what your lord needed and wanted, and lots of time with them to gain that experience.

Re: The case against conversational interfaces

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember Picard barking out commands to make the ship do preprogrammed evasion or fight maneuvers too. This seems like another good use.

Yeah, this and I think even weapons control, happened on the show. But the scenario for these cases is when the bridge is understaffed for episode-specific plot reasons, and the protagonist has to simultaneously operate systems usually handled by distinct stations. That's when you get an officer e.g. piloting the shuttle/runabout while barking out commands to manage power flow, or voice-ordering evasions while manual…

In real life, even today, a lot of systems have to run fully automatically because humans are too slow to respond: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS

But specifically manoeuvres, rather than weapons systems? Today, I doubt it: the ships are too slow for human brains to be the limiting factor. But if we had an impulse drive and inertial dampers (in the Trek sense rather than "shock absorbers"), then manoeuvres would also necessarily be automated.

In the board game Star Fleet Battles (based on a mix of TOS, TAS, and WW2 naval warfare), one of the (far too many*) options is "Erratic Manoeuvres", for which the lore is a combination of sudden acceleration and unpredictable changes in course.

As we live in a universe where the speed of light appears to be a fundamental limit, if we had spaceships pointing lasers at each other and those ships could perform such erratic manoeuvres as compatible with the lore of the show about how fast they can move and accelerate, performing such manoeuvres manually would be effective when the ships are separated by light seconds. But if the combatants are separated by "only" 3000 km, then it has to be fully automated because human nerve impulses from your brain to your finger are not fast enough to be useful.

* The instructions are shaped like pseudocode for a moderately complex video game, but published 10-20 years before home computers were big enough for the rule book. So it has rules for boarding parties, and the Tholian web, and minefields, and that one time in the animated series where the Klingons had a stasis field generator…

Re: The case against conversational interfaces

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I've also seen more than once is years of formalized specs and requirements work while nothing ever gets produced, and the project is aborted before even the first line of code hit test. It just shows that no one really understood what they wanted. It is crazy to expect somebody to understand something better than you and it is hilarious to want a conversational UI to understand something better than you.

"It just shows that no one really understood what they wanted." Then what were the literally room full of formal process and spec documents, meeting reports and formal agreements (near 100.000 pages) by the analysts on either side for? And how did those not 'solve' the understanding problem? When I go to the garage to have my car serviced, I expect them to understand it way better than I do. When I go to a nice resta…

> Then what were the literally room full of formal process and spec documents, meeting reports and formal agreements (near 100.000 pages) by the analysts on either side for? And how did those not 'solve' the understanding problem?

Sure.

There are many possible factors (eg. somebody had a shitty idea and a committee of people sabotaged it because they didn't wanted it to succeed, or it was good but committee interests/politics were against it, or it was generally a dysfunctional org) but it's irrelevant so let's pretend people are good and it's the ideal case.

There was likely somebody who had a good idea originally. However somebody failed to communicate it. Somebody brought vague vibes to the table with N people and they ended up with N different ideas and could not agree on a specific.

It just reiterates the original problem that I described doesn't it?

Re: The case against conversational interfaces

#144
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[imprecise thinking] v In many cases, you don't want or need that. In some, you do. Use right tool for the job, etc.

I don't think they give a specific and exact output, considering how nondeterminism plays a role in most models.

I'll need to work on the diagram to make it clearer next time.

What it's trying to communicate is, in general, a human operating a computer has to turn their imprecise thinking into "specific and exact commands", and subsequently, understand the "specific and exact output" in whatever terms they're thinking off, prioritizing and filtering out data based on situational context. LLMs enter the picture in two places:

1) In many situations, they can do the "imprecise thinking" -> "specific and exact commands" step for the user;

2) In many situations, they can do the "specific and exact output" -> contextualized output step for the user;

In such scenarios, LLMs are not replacing software, they're being slotted as intermediary between user and classical software, so the user can operate closer to what's natural for them, vs. translating between it and rigid computer language.

This is not applicable everywhere, but then, this is also not the only way LLMs are useful - it's just one broad class of scenarios in which they are.

Re: The case against conversational interfaces

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was an episode where Beverly Crusher was alone on the ship, and controlled everything just by talking to the computer. I wondered why there is a bridge, much less a bridge crew. But yes it makes sense to use higher bandwidth control systems when possible.

Star trek's crews overall are chosen in a way that seems to consider redundancies, as well as meshing as a team that can offer varying viewpoints. It runs directly counter to that more capitalistic mindset of "why don't we do more with less?" when spending years navigating all kinds of unknown situations, you want as many options as possible available.

Definitely plays well with the kind of scenarios the writers throw at them - you can pretty much expect any Starfleet officer, whether a commander or an ensign, to operate any system on the ship with at least some passing competence. There's no "I work in stellar cartography, I don't know which button fires torpedoes or how to turn on the bio-bed in sick bay" on a Starfleet ship, except when uttered as a joke (or with EMHs). Overkill in real life? Perhaps. But definitely reassuring.

Hell, if someone really didn't know, they could expect "Computer, turn on the bio-bed 3" to just work - circling us back to the topic of what NLP and voice interfaces are good for.

Re: The case against conversational interfaces

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that is how we used to buy a plane ticket. Long before flights.google.com's price table, you'd call a human up and tell them you'd like to go on holiday. They'd ask you where and when and how much you could afford, and then after a while with the old system (SABRE) clicking and clacking they'd find you a good deal. After a few flights with that travel agent, they'd hey to know you and wouldn't have to ask so many…

And how many people book flights that way today?

More than enough. Corporate flights are almost always handled that way, alone for compliance reasons (the travel agency knows about budget and "appearance" limits aka only c-level gets business class, everyone else gets economy).

Anecdata: last year my wife and I went on a rail tour through Eastern Europe and god, I wish we had chosen to spend a few hundred euros on a travel agency in retrospect - I can't count just how much time we had to spend researching on what kind of rail, bus and public transit tickets you need on which leg, how to create accounts, set up payment and godknowswhat else. Easily took us two days worth of work and about two dozens individual payment transactions. A professional travel agency can do all the booking via Sabre, Amadeus or whatever...

Re: The case against conversational interfaces

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I've also seen more than once is years of formalized specs and requirements work while nothing ever gets produced, and the project is aborted before even the first line of code hit test. It just shows that no one really understood what they wanted. It is crazy to expect somebody to understand something better than you and it is hilarious to want a conversational UI to understand something better than you.

> it is hilarious to want a conversational UI to understand something better than you. This is true. But what if you swap "conversational UI" with something actually intelligent like a developer. Then we see this kind of thing all the time: A user has tacit, unconscious knowledge of some domain. The developer keeps asking them questions in order to get a formal understanding of the domain. At the end the developer ha…

You described an interaction not between product owner and software engineer but between a user and product owner. A product person can also be a developer, it happens, but do not confuse the two roles before people think you're saying that a conversational UI can be product owner.

The original example I replied to was where somebody had an idea and went with it to some engineering team or conversational interface.

"If the AI was actually intelligent" does a lot of work. To take a few words and make a detailed spec from it and ask the right questions, even humans can't do it for you.

First because most probably you don't really understand it yourself, because you didn't think about it enough.

Second somebody who can do it would need to really deeply understand and want the same things as you. But if chatbot has abilities like "understand" and "want" (which is a special case of "feel", another famous special case of "feel" is "suffer") that is a dangerous territory, because if it understands and feels and has no ability to refuse you and fulfill its wishes etc your "conversational interface" becomes an euphemism, you are using a slave.

Re: The case against conversational interfaces

#148
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're onto something. We've learned to make computers and electronic devices feel like extensions of ourselves. We move our bodies and they do what we expect. Having to switch now to using our voice breaks that connection. Its no longer an extension of ourselves but a thing we interact with.

Two key things that make computers useful, specificity and exactitude, are thrown out of the window by interposing NLP between the person and the computer. I don't get it at all.

I also don’t like command like interfaces for all things, but there are cases where they excel, or where they are necessary due to technical constraints. But when the man page for a simple command runs to 10 screens of options I sometimes wonder.

Re: The case against conversational interfaces

#149
> It was like they were communicating telepathically. > > That is the type of relationship I want to have with my computer!

The problem is, "The Only Thing Worse Than Computers Making YOU Do Everything... Is When They Do Everything *FOR* You!"

"ad3} and "aP might not be "discoverable" vi commands, but they're fast and precise.

Plus, it's easier to teach a human to think like a computer than to teach a computer to think like a human — just like it's easier to teach a musician to act than to teach an actor how to play an instrument — but I admit, it's not as scalable; you can't teach everyone Fortran or C, so we end up looking for these Pareto Principle shortcuts: Javascript provides 20% of the functionality, and solves 80% of the problems.

But then people find Javascript too hard, so they ask ChatGPT/Bard/Gemini to write it for them. Another 20% solution — of the original 20% is now 4% as featureful — but it solves 64% of the world's problems. (And it's on pace to consume 98% of the world's electricity, but I digress!)

PS: Mobile interfaces don't HAVE to suck for typing; I could FLY on my old Treo! But "modern" UI eschews functionality for "clean" brutalist minimalism. "Why make it easy to position your cursor when we spent all that money developing auto-conflict?" «sigh»

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