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How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

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Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#451

Post by davorak »

tetromino_ wrote: post #366
sapphicsnail wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have yet to see a free speech absolutist express concern about the government and media suppressing Gaza protestors or LGBTQ books being banned or anything else that affects the left. Doesn't seem very principled to me.

> I have yet to see a free speech absolutist express concern ... Hi there. You are seeing one right now. Well, seeing the words of one. I am a free speech absolutist. What this administration is doing is abominable. I have always seen anti-Israeli campus posters as idiots, but Trump's crackdown on them is, imho, unconstitutional and immoral.

> free speech absolutist

An unfortunately overloaded term. 1) free speech absolutist meaning the government should not be censor private citizens speech in any way, 2) or twitter/similar is breaking the law by censoring X speech, 3) or twitter/similar should be considered a defacto public square and therefor the company twitter/similar can not legally censor speech on it, 4) or "I align with Elon Musk who calls himself a free speech absolutist", or etc.

Likely sapphicsnail was talking about the less principled, or not understood by principles by me, variety of people calling themselves free speech absolutist, who seem to dominate, or least be the most vocal, the conversation around "free speech absolutism" in reason years.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#452

Post by wahnfrieden »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #291
sega_sai wrote: post #78

As a person who lived in the States for a bit, and listened to a lot of news, I remember always this almost fawning over the Founding Fathers, checks and balances and great American constitution. It is remarkable, how easy it all goes, and most people don't do anything (i.e. out of 100 top law firms, only a handful joined the lawsuit against the government, etc.)

As an American, I agree - I'm pretty surprised at how nakedly transparent the whole thing has been. One basic example - I thought pretty much everyone agreed that at least some level of due process is just inherent to the rights of everyone in the US. When I hear administration figures arguing that flying the Venezuelans to El Salvadoran prisons is a good thing because "they're really bad dudes", I think "OK, and we'…

Venezuela claims zero were members fwiw

> Venezuela's Interior Minister Diosdado Cabello said on Friday that none of the hundreds of Venezuelans deported by the U.S. to a Salvadoran prison is a member of Venezuela's Tren de Aragua criminal gang, the reason Washington gave for expelling them.

> "I believe with absolute responsibility that not a single one appears on the organizational chart of the now-extinct Tren de Aragua organization, not a single one," Cabello said on a podcast, saying he had names of the deportees from U.S. media and his own source.

> Venezuela says Tren de Aragua was effectively wiped out in 2023, and that the idea that it still exists is based on a claim from the country's political opposition.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#453

Post by mayrio »

This is a case of things must get better before they get worse… Basic right in america have been declining for years now. And now its happening all at once.

The question is how bad does it have to get before the average Americans start to unite and fight back against this billionaire friendly legislation.

This country started by revolting over taxes on tea.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#454

Post by facile3232 »

cowhow wrote: post #443
facile3232 wrote: post #376

I don't really care, tbh. There are better rights to fight for: food, shelter, education, healthcare. If said freedom of speech had been to be used to fight for materially meaningful rights, I'd be a big fan. Most Americans never bothered to use the right in any way that improved this country. You don't use it, you lose it. As it stands most people associate it with the right to behave like a dick in public.

Just like oxygen, free speech is one of those things that you don't miss until you lose it. You use it everyday without even realizing it. In a country without free speech protections, expressing an unpopular opinion about a political party or hot topic can get you thrown in prison. Look at the Syrian Assad regime or the current Chinese administration. People are arrested for merely being negative in social media pos…

What's the point without a political pathway to remediate anything? We haven't done basically anything to fix what we were complaining about 50 years ago.

At least in prison they'll feed me or kill me, two things they'll otherwise refuse to do until you commit a crime.

Frankly, I would prefer a world where everyone agreed the government was shit but nobody could complain. It's better than people openly defending evil people and calling it the height of democracy. If that's democracy give me the PRC any day.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#456

Post by bentobean »

dj_gitmo wrote: post #395
sega_sai wrote: post #78

As a person who lived in the States for a bit, and listened to a lot of news, I remember always this almost fawning over the Founding Fathers, checks and balances and great American constitution. It is remarkable, how easy it all goes, and most people don't do anything (i.e. out of 100 top law firms, only a handful joined the lawsuit against the government, etc.)

During the first Trump term, most of the institutions did resist Trump. The fact that he go reelected after his first term was so chaotic and scandalous has basically demoralized everyone. There are other factors, like the utter failure of Biden and the democrats, but its hard to recon with the fact that people are so far gone at this point.

I don’t feel demoralized.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#457

Post by luhsprwhk »

tayo42 wrote: post #403
boroboro4 wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I’m with you on attention economy I think it’s simplification of what’s going on: – we had very dysfunctional legislature for last 20+ years – quality of life is falling for majority of people This contributes to feeling of unfairness in the society which pushes authoritarian and populist ideas.

I don't get why people expect the government to make their lives amazing? Has this ever happened, where had some amazing QoL thanks to their countries government. I expect my government to manage public resources, the economy and defense. It can provide social safety nets for worst case scenarios. But if your eating food and have a home and making money what are people actually expecting from the government?

The Saudis have oil cash for all—controversial, but it beats arguing politics with broke friends.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#458

Post by Aurornis »

kopirgan wrote: post #448
Aurornis wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not really clear what this article is about. The article is quite clear: It’s about exactly what the title explains. I’m not sure how you would find it unclear unless you were skimming too fast to read it or you went in trying to find an angle to push a different agenda. > If it's about using Signal app to escape FoIA it's odd not to discuss who actually started that or use of personal servers in basements & shredd…

I'm open to reasonable criticism like yours appears to be. It's not wrong to mention past given that past has great chances of returning as future. Not just in US context, but in most electoral democracies. By not discussing issues objectively the article just reads like another NYT, MSNBC rant. Sure be my guest and go ahead but we know what the credibility of that approach is.

> By not discussing issues objectively

The article discusses issues objectively.

The article is about current events. The discussion is objective.

Your desire to bring past events into the discussion is irrelevant. That’s not what objective means. Comparing things to other things is relativism, not objectivity.

You’re just grasping at straws, but your arguments aren’t even logically consistent. I really don’t understand how someone can get in so deep that their thought process starts trying to rationalize things away like this.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#459

Post by etchalon »

pmarreck wrote: post #195
smallmancontrov wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "nothing ever changes" heuristic fails catastrophically on occasion. It's better to be prepared.

Yes. I'm well-aware of the analogy of the slowly boiled frog, etc. But it's also the slippery-slope fallacy, so... Why are we assuming facts here before we know of them? She is a Turkish national on a student visa. Those folks do NOT (like it or not) have the same rights as citizens. You cannot, for example, support (not saying she's done this, just saying this is the law) an organization designated as an FTO, as a "…

Visa holders have all of what most would consider "foundational rights" as any citizen. They have freedom of speech, assembly, religion, due process, etc.

The government revoking a visa based on categories of behavior which are protected by those foundational rights is appalling.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#460

Post by gls2ro »

boroboro4 wrote: post #244
pfo32 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its cooked everywhere. Thank the Attention Economy. All sides are trapped by in a fight over finite Attention. Its like the world war but instead of land its Views/Clicks/Likes. Since Attention is a finite non growing pool the trap is set. One day some one gets all the fish and another its someone else. Anyone who has any sense wouldn't waste any energy being part of such a stupid game cause its eventually lose lose.…

While I’m with you on attention economy I think it’s simplification of what’s going on: – we had very dysfunctional legislature for last 20+ years – quality of life is falling for majority of people This contributes to feeling of unfairness in the society which pushes authoritarian and populist ideas.

Can you give some examples about this assertion?

> quality of life is falling for majority of people

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