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Chimpanzees act as 'engineers', choosing materials to make tools

sciencedaily.com

61–70 of 78 posts

Re: Chimpanzees act as 'engineers', choosing materials to make tools

#61
Two overlooked aspect of the research:

First, an object of the research is pre-human ancestors' tool use:

> Physical evidence of early hominin perishable tools is scarce. However, it is reasonable to assume the mechanical constraints surrounding tool use and manufacture have remained somewhat constant. Using a functional framework to understand the technical capabilities of extant hominoid tool users presents a novel approach to predict the perishable tool-using capabilities of our earliest relatives.

Note that the Paleolithic, the first period of stone tools, started ~2.58 - 3.3 mya (million years ago); stone can be durable since X mya and we have lots of evidence of that. But our evolutionary line split from the chimps' line ~7 mya (though remember the 7 mya shared ancestor was not a chimpanzee; they evolved too). Before the Paleolithic, and even after it began, our ancestors at times likely used tools made from perishable materials - I cooked dinner with a wooden spoon, myself.

Also, there's the question of culture - something once thought unique to humans:

> Our findings provide insights into the technical skills associated with perishable artefact-making and raise questions about how this knowledge is learnt and culturally transmitted.

There are two ways to pass down traits: genetics, and culture. If you think culture is somehow weaker or secondary, look at the traditions or look at languages that have lasted thousands of years with no genetic basis. An advantage of the cultural method is flexibility - it can be changed today; biological evolution takes awhile.

Re: Chimpanzees act as 'engineers', choosing materials to make tools

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do we always try to use human metrics to judge other species?

If we don't use some metric we're no better than animals.

We aren’t. We’re worse. We’re animals with nuclear bombs. You can say it it doesn’t matter but you can’t tell me it’s not true.

Re: Chimpanzees act as 'engineers', choosing materials to make tools

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we don't use some metric we're no better than animals.

We aren’t. We’re worse. We’re animals with nuclear bombs. You can say it it doesn’t matter but you can’t tell me it’s not true.

The bombs are real. We really are built on an animal substrate, at least.

On the other hand I think very few 'nonhuman animals' could have the discussion we're having right now. Maybe none of them.

Supposedly the Romans had some horrible bullshit about "half beast, half god." To me even that superstitious nonsense is better than the heuristics we have today for describing what a human is. I agree that we can be worse than animals. It also seems clear that we can be better than animals.

Re: Chimpanzees act as 'engineers', choosing materials to make tools

#66
post #61

Two overlooked aspect of the research: First, an object of the research is pre-human ancestors' tool use: > Physical evidence of early hominin perishable tools is scarce. However, it is reasonable to assume the mechanical constraints surrounding tool use and manufacture have remained somewhat constant. Using a functional framework to understand the technical capabilities of extant hominoid tool users presents a novel…

> An advantage of the cultural method is flexibility - it can be changed today

And it can be changed deliberately. Biological evolution is inherently a random search guided by a fixed quality metric -- reproductive fitness. That is not necessarily what a sentient being wants to optimize for.

Re: Chimpanzees act as 'engineers', choosing materials to make tools

#67
post #5

Yes but they make a lot of fuzzy decisions, so they are better compared with e.g. alchemists or deep learning researchers.

Honestly that makes sense; they _are_ a lot fuzzier than humans generally. Maybe they might figure out how to use a tool to shave?

Re: Chimpanzees act as 'engineers', choosing materials to make tools

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We aren’t. We’re worse. We’re animals with nuclear bombs. You can say it it doesn’t matter but you can’t tell me it’s not true.

The bombs are real. We really are built on an animal substrate, at least. On the other hand I think very few 'nonhuman animals' could have the discussion we're having right now. Maybe none of them. Supposedly the Romans had some horrible bullshit about "half beast, half god." To me even that superstitious nonsense is better than the heuristics we have today for describing what a human is. I agree that we can be worse…

I want to answer the question of whether our pursuits are meaningful.

I want to say yes, but with the caveat that we don’t deserve the outcome as a sick society

Creationists love to use the human eye as proof of a higher plan. A semi useless collection of structures independently but a powerful system.

I see the same in all of us. Let’s make an eye.

Re: Chimpanzees act as 'engineers', choosing materials to make tools

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is an ape adjusting the recording camera on her own https://youtu.be/dHmRLpNQBJU&t=39s Also https://youtu.be/dHmRLpNQBJU&t=26s

“Adjusting” or just touching the thing she’s seen the humans touch?

Touche! though it might mean experimenters need to be nearly as careful with these apes as with human subjects.
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