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Low responsiveness of ML models to critical or deteriorating health conditions

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Re: Low responsiveness of ML models to critical or deteriorating health conditions

#21
post #3

I work in the ICU monitoring field, on the R&D team of a company with live systems at dozens of hospitals and multiple FDA approvals. We use extended Kalman filters (i.e. non-blackbox "ML") to estimate certain lab values of patients that are highly indicative of them crashing, based on live data from whatever set of monitors they're hooked up to - and it's highly robust. What the authors of this paper are doing is th…

As an intuition on why many people see this as different.

PAC Learning is about compression, KF/EKF is more like Taylor expansion.

The specific types of PAC Learning that this paper covers has problems with a simplicity bias, and fairly low sensitivity.

While based on UHATs, this paper may provide some insights.

https://arxiv.org/abs/2502.02393

Obviously LLM and LRMs are the most studied, but even the recent posts on here from anthropic show that without a few high probability entries in the k-top results, confabulations are difficult for transformers.

Obviously there are PAC Learning methods that target anomaly detection, but they are very different than even EKF + Mc

You will note in this paper that even highly weighted features exhibited low sensitivity.

While the industry may find some pathological cases that make the approach usable, autograd and the need for parallelism make the application of this papers methods to tiny variations to multivariate problem ambitious.

They also only trained on medical data. Part of the reason the foundation models do so well is that they encode verifiers from a huge corpus that invalidates the traditional bias variance tradeoffs from the early 90's papers.

But they are still selecting from the needles and don't have access to the hay in the haystack.

The following paper is really not related except it shows how compression exacerbates that problem.

https://arxiv.org/abs/2205.06977

Chaitin's constant encoding the Halting problem, and that it is normal and uncomputable is the extreme top end of computability, but relates to the compression idea.

EKFs have access to the computable reals, and while non-linear, KF and EKFs can be thought of linearization of the approximations as a lens.

If the diagnostic indicators were both ergodic and Markovian, this paper's approach would probably be fairly reliable.

But these efforts are really about finding a many to one reduction that works.

I am skeptical about it in this case for PAC ML, but perhaps they will find a pathological case.

But the tradeoffs between statistical learning and expansive methods are quite different.

Obviously hype cycles drive efforts, I encourage you to look at this years AAAI conference report and see that you are not alone with the frustration on the single minded approach.

IMHO this paper is a net positive, showing that we are moving from a broad exploration to targeted applications.

But that is just my opinion.

Re: Low responsiveness of ML models to critical or deteriorating health conditions

#22
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it less ML than linear regression?

If you want to draw the line between ML and not ML, I think you’ll have to put Kalman filters and linear regression on the non-ML side. You can put support vector machines and neural networks on the ML side. In some sense the exact place you draw the distinction is arbitrary. You could try to characterize where the distinction is by saying that models with fewer parameters and lower complexity tend to be called “not…

Linear regression is literally the second lecture of the Stanford ML class. https://cs229.stanford.edu/

If you want to say "not neural networks" or not dnn or not llm, sure. But it's obviously machine learning

Re: Low responsiveness of ML models to critical or deteriorating health conditions

#24
post #3

I work in the ICU monitoring field, on the R&D team of a company with live systems at dozens of hospitals and multiple FDA approvals. We use extended Kalman filters (i.e. non-blackbox "ML") to estimate certain lab values of patients that are highly indicative of them crashing, based on live data from whatever set of monitors they're hooked up to - and it's highly robust. What the authors of this paper are doing is th…

Calling EKFs "ML" is certainly a choice.

It's machine learning until you understand how it works, then it's just control theory and filters again.

Re: Low responsiveness of ML models to critical or deteriorating health conditions

#26
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to draw the line between ML and not ML, I think you’ll have to put Kalman filters and linear regression on the non-ML side. You can put support vector machines and neural networks on the ML side. In some sense the exact place you draw the distinction is arbitrary. You could try to characterize where the distinction is by saying that models with fewer parameters and lower complexity tend to be called “not…

Linear regression is literally the second lecture of the Stanford ML class. https://cs229.stanford.edu/ If you want to say "not neural networks" or not dnn or not llm, sure. But it's obviously machine learning

When you say it’s “obviously machine learning”, how could that statement possibly be correct? There’s not even broad consensus here… so you don’t get to say that your definition is obviously correct.

There are pedagogical reasons why you’d include linear regression in a machine learning course. This is pretty clear to me—they have properties which are extremely important to the field of machine learning field, such as differentiability.

Re: Low responsiveness of ML models to critical or deteriorating health conditions

#27

For IHM prediction, LSTM models and transformer models were trained for 100 epochs using the MIMIC-III and eICU datasets separately. I might be blind, but I don't see any mention of loss. Did they stop at 100 because it was a nice round number or because it was a good place to stop? The LSTM model they used had 7k trainable parameters, the CW-LSTM model 153k while the transformer model had 800k parameters (300k train…

A 7k param LSTM is very tiny. Not sure if LSTMs would even work at that scale although someone with more theoretical knowledge can correct me on this.

As an aside, I'm trying to train transformers for some classification tasks on audio data. The models are "small" (like 1M-15M params at most) and I find they are very finicky to train. Below 1M parameters I find them hard to train at all. I have thrown all sorts of learning rate schedules at them and the best I can get is the network learns for a bit and then plateaus, after which I can't do anything to get them out of that minima. Training an LSTM/GRU on the same data gives me a much better loss value.

I couldn't find many papers on training transformers at that scale. The only one I was able to find was MS's TinyStories [0], but that paper didn't delve much into how they trained the models and whether they trained from scratch or distilled from a larger model.

At those scales, I find LSTMs and CNNs are a lot more stable. The few online threads I've found comparing LSTMs and Transformers had the same thing to say - Transformers need a lot more data and model size to achieve parity and exceed LSTMs/GRUs/CNNs, maybe because the inductive bias provided is hard to beat at those scales. Others can comment on what they've seen.

[0] - https://arxiv.org/abs/2305.07759

Re: Low responsiveness of ML models to critical or deteriorating health conditions

#28

For IHM prediction, LSTM models and transformer models were trained for 100 epochs using the MIMIC-III and eICU datasets separately. I might be blind, but I don't see any mention of loss. Did they stop at 100 because it was a nice round number or because it was a good place to stop? The LSTM model they used had 7k trainable parameters, the CW-LSTM model 153k while the transformer model had 800k parameters (300k train…

What ever happened to early stopping? I see so many papers where people train neural networks with half-baked recipes. I think I saw early stopping first around 1990 but it is so often for people to pick some arbitrary number of epochs to run. I have to admit I never liked the term "early stopping", I think people should have called it just "stopping", because it makes it seem optional. Back when I was training LSTM…

Nowadays, even the definition of an "epoch" is not well defined. Traditionally it meant a pass over the entire training set, but datasets are so massive today that many now define an epoch as X steps - where a step is a minibatch (of whatever size) from the training set. So 1 epoch is a random sample of X minibatches from the training set. I'd guess the logic is that datasets are so massive that you pick as much data as you can fit in VRAM.

Karpathy's Zero To Hero series also uses this.

Re: Low responsiveness of ML models to critical or deteriorating health conditions

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s too reductive—ML models are statistical models. Statistical models have parameters, and in general cases, you choose the parameters with some kind of optimization algorithm. If you play fast and loose with your definition of “ML”, you’ll end up defining it so that any statistical model is an ML model… in which case, why even bother using two different terms? ML models are, broadly speaking, the more complicate…

I am sure there are people teach data science classes who look at it in that "reductive" way. From the viewpoint of engineering, scikit-learn provides the same interface to linear regression that it supplies to many other models. Huggingface provides an interface to models that is similar in a lot of ways but I think a 'regression' in that it doesn't provide the bare minimum of model selection facilities needed to re…

There’s a pedagogical reason to teach things with a kind of reductive definition. It makes a lot of sense.

I remember getting cornered by somebody in a statistics class and interrogated about whether I thought neural networks were statistical techniques. In that situation I’ll only answer yes, they are statistical techniques. As far as I can tell, a big chunk of what we do with machine learning is create complicated models with a large number of parameters. We’re not creating something other than statistical models. We just draw a kind of cultural line between traditional statistics and machine learning techniques.

Now that I think about it, maybe if you asked me about the line between traditional statistics and machine learning, I would say that in traditional statistics, you can understand the parameters.

Re: Low responsiveness of ML models to critical or deteriorating health conditions

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling EKFs "ML" is certainly a choice.

It's machine learning until you understand how it works, then it's just control theory and filters again.

Diffusion models are a happy middle ground. :-)
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