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Chimpanzees act as 'engineers', choosing materials to make tools

sciencedaily.com

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Re: Chimpanzees act as 'engineers', choosing materials to make tools

#51

Post by GeoAtreides »

bell-cot wrote: post #47
GeoAtreides wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A multidisciplinary team of researchers from the School of Anthropology and Museum Ethnography at the University of Oxford, the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, the Jane Goodall Institute in Tanzania, the University of Algarve and the University of Porto in Portugal, and the University of Leipzig, so, i have a question; do you think the team of researchers above have no idea what they're doing? t…

I assume the researchers know perfectly well what they're doing...but "what they're doing" is much closer to "padding their publication counts" than it is to "making non-trivial scientific discoveries", or "responsible use of limited research funding". Anyone even slightly familiar with the arboreal habits of chimpanzees would realize that those alone would require them to have excellent judgement for the flexibility…

It's not an argument from authority fallacy if the authority is an authority in the respective argument.

'How dare you cast doubt' is pretty valid when you're an anonymous poster on HN casting doubt on tenured professors from some of the most prestigious universities in the world.

Re: Chimpanzees act as 'engineers', choosing materials to make tools

#53

Post by GeoAtreides »

Hobadee wrote: post #42
GeoAtreides wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

am I taking crazy pills? the researchers' publication[1] is literally called: "Engineering skills in the manufacture of tools by wild chimpanzees" Literally "Engineering skills". The graphical abstract: https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.isci.2025.112158/asset/0e... > "Chimpanzees show a degree of engineering acumen in the selection of plant materials for toolmaking." > engineering acumen [1] https://www.cell.com/isc…

Just because it's in the title, doesn't mean the paper supports it. I just skimmed the summary, but didn't notice any proof of "engineering". How do we know that chimpanzees weren't just selecting materials that had a good outcome in the past via trial and error? Or know that "more flexible=more food"? I would say that true engineering requires an inate understanding of the concepts going into the design, and I didn'…

First, 'proof' is the wrong word to use here. That aside...

Sure, let me read the paper for you, why not.

>Given the wide range of inter- and intra-species variation of plant structural and mechanical properties, and that such physical properties could influence the functionality of a constructed tool, we hypothesize that the structural and mechanical properties of plant material may be a selection criterion used by chimpanzees when making their tools.

>Our results indicate that the mechanics of plant tissues are a factor in selecting materials for the construction of termite fishing probes by Gombe chimpanzees, notably low EI and reduced E. The selection of tool materials based on specific physical properties has already been described in the use of stone tools by nonhuman primates.7,8,11,12,61 Our research therefore extends the technological knowhow of wild chimpanzees to their toolmaking behavior.

You'll forgive me if I don't paste the whole paper in here, it's pretty long, and full of math formulas.

Re: Chimpanzees act as 'engineers', choosing materials to make tools

#54

Post by oh_my_goodness »

xandrius wrote: post #44
weard_beard wrote: post #6

Let me know when a chimp publishes in science daily. Bonus points if it’s written in feces.

Why do we always try to use human metrics to judge other species?

If we don't use some metric we're no better than animals.

Re: Chimpanzees act as 'engineers', choosing materials to make tools

#55

Post by oh_my_goodness »

bee_rider wrote: post #33
GeoAtreides wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A multidisciplinary team of researchers from the School of Anthropology and Museum Ethnography at the University of Oxford, the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, the Jane Goodall Institute in Tanzania, the University of Algarve and the University of Porto in Portugal, and the University of Leipzig, so, i have a question; do you think the team of researchers above have no idea what they're doing? t…

In the researchers’ publication, they didn’t substantiate the claim that chimpanzees are doing engineering (actually they didn’t even define what engineering is or why it would be significant if the chimpanzees were doing it). They document some interesting tool-making behavior, that the chimpanzees are somewhat picky about the material properties of the sticks they use to catch ants.

'they didn’t even define what engineering is or why it would be significant if the chimpanzees were doing it'

Do you mean literally "I don't understand why it would be significant if animals were doing engineering." ...?

Re: Chimpanzees act as 'engineers', choosing materials to make tools

#57

Post by jagged-chisel »

gsf_emergency_2 wrote: post #25
amelius wrote: post #5

Yes but they make a lot of fuzzy decisions, so they are better compared with e.g. alchemists or deep learning researchers.

Here is an ape adjusting the recording camera on her own https://youtu.be/dHmRLpNQBJU&t=39s Also https://youtu.be/dHmRLpNQBJU&t=26s

“Adjusting” or just touching the thing she’s seen the humans touch?

Re: Chimpanzees act as 'engineers', choosing materials to make tools

#58

Post by jagged-chisel »

bee_rider wrote: post #31
Avicebron wrote: post #15

Damn we gotta ante up, if they're taking away my title of engineer and giving it to chimps, guess I'll just find a job where they can issue me "Doctor" job title. "Doctor and Principal Cybersecurity Engineer" sounds good.

Really coding is more about trying to reason about overly-complex systems that you don’t fully understand for the most part. Legacy cruft with non-obvious dependencies. Poor designs. So, “code doctors” sorta works. Or “code lawyers.”

I think you just need a PhD in hand drawing and you’re set for life.

Re: Chimpanzees act as 'engineers', choosing materials to make tools

#60

Post by pishpash »

caseyy wrote: post #46
upghost wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Chimpanzees stare into mirror and mistake reflection for AGI. Chimp Altman says we just need to invest 7 trillion bananas into a bigger mirror."

"Student chimpanzee builds a tiny mirror for 6 bananas. It shows the same image."

"Alpha chimpanzee goes apeshit and decks chimpanzees who exchange Giant Polished Units for bananas with student chimpanzee."
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