The Art of DJing: Avalon Emerson (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: The Art of DJing: Avalon Emerson (2019)

#21

Post by jrowen » Fri, Mar 28, 2025, 10:25 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #19

eminence32 wrote: post #4

A few months on Hacker News there was a post about Mixxx[1], an open-source DJ software. It prompted me to download it and play around. It's very cool. Despite being a complete novice, I learned a few things after a dozen hours of playing around: * I don't have a physical controller, but I can understand why people always use them. Keyboard and mouse are not fully sufficient. * The built-in key and beat detection is…

Song selection comes from hours of listening to music in the style you will be playing. Eventually, you will hear a riff from one song and it will make you think of another song. Those will be interesting to mix together. You might hear one song with a bass line that you really like with a melody line that is on the lighter side. You might then come across a song with a strong melody, but a bass line that could be pu…

Using a tool to beat match has always been considered "cheating", but it is obvious why it is a tool.

I guess in the same way that using a higher-level language than Assembly is "cheating." I'm not sure if you're referring specifically to the Sync feature (which is still largely frowned upon) or more generally analyzed beatgrids, BPM readouts and Master Tempo (which keeps the pitch in tune when you change the tempo), but the vast majority of practicing DJs today are not needing/using the old school vinyl beatmatching techniques.

Call it whatever you want but you're going to be incredibly hard-pressed to find anyone that can mix as smoothly on vinyl as someone decent with CDJs. Sure it's a cool dying art and analog and all that but at this point virtually anyone trying to play vinyl out is sacrificing the listener's experience for cool points (including the physical issues with reproducing sound from delicate machinery in a chaotic environment).

Re: The Art of DJing: Avalon Emerson (2019)

#22

Post by et-al » Fri, Mar 28, 2025, 10:33 PM UTC

inigoalonso wrote: post #20

GEBBL wrote: post #9

Avalon Emerson is such a great dj and producer. I’d love to see them live sometime - I’ve a great set from 2017 of theirs on SoundCloud that’s really eclectic. Love the style.

I met her briefly in 2014 through common friends in Berlin, and then saw her live in some early (before midnight) session in a semi empty small club in Kreuzberg. Some other friend and I then tried our luck at Berghain. We didn't make it. The San Francisco group did. Fun times nonetheless.

Oh gosh reading this I thought we waited in line together.

My experience, from 2015, was that we left Vögelchen in Kreuzberg, went back to her spot where she played records for a bit, then at 5am folks decided to go to go to Berghain. She waited in line with the rest of us commoners.

Re: The Art of DJing: Avalon Emerson (2019)

#23

Post by dylan604 » Fri, Mar 28, 2025, 10:36 PM UTC

jrowen wrote: post #21

dylan604 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Song selection comes from hours of listening to music in the style you will be playing. Eventually, you will hear a riff from one song and it will make you think of another song. Those will be interesting to mix together. You might hear one song with a bass line that you really like with a melody line that is on the lighter side. You might then come across a song with a strong melody, but a bass line that could be pu…

Using a tool to beat match has always been considered "cheating", but it is obvious why it is a tool. I guess in the same way that using a higher-level language than Assembly is "cheating." I'm not sure if you're referring specifically to the Sync feature (which is still largely frowned upon) or more generally analyzed beatgrids, BPM readouts and Master Tempo (which keeps the pitch in tune when you change the tempo),…

> Call it whatever you want but you're going to be incredibly hard-pressed to find anyone that can mix as smoothly on vinyl as someone decent with CDJs. Sure it's a cool dying art and analog and all that but at this point virtually anyone trying to play vinyl out is sacrificing the listening experience for cool points

That's a sad commentary on today's DJs then. Yes, there were some very bad vinyl DJs that loved the shoes in the dryer mixes and could not advance past that. They love the "beatmatch" magic. Doesn't mean that those that could are less of a DJ which is what you're trying to say?

My perfect setup would be vinyl controllers of a digital player which is very much a thing. Of course, hearing a DJ mix vinyl that is older with all of the snap crackle pops of a burning log is not pleasant, but that does not diminish the vinyl as a controller being superior to a tiny plastic spin wheel on a digital controller.

Re: The Art of DJing: Avalon Emerson (2019)

#24

Post by jonwinstanley » Fri, Mar 28, 2025, 10:44 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #23

jrowen wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using a tool to beat match has always been considered "cheating", but it is obvious why it is a tool. I guess in the same way that using a higher-level language than Assembly is "cheating." I'm not sure if you're referring specifically to the Sync feature (which is still largely frowned upon) or more generally analyzed beatgrids, BPM readouts and Master Tempo (which keeps the pitch in tune when you change the tempo),…

> Call it whatever you want but you're going to be incredibly hard-pressed to find anyone that can mix as smoothly on vinyl as someone decent with CDJs. Sure it's a cool dying art and analog and all that but at this point virtually anyone trying to play vinyl out is sacrificing the listening experience for cool points That's a sad commentary on today's DJs then. Yes, there were some very bad vinyl DJs that loved the…

I agree that the beat sync tools feel like cheating for the old school DJs, but the newer generation are using it to get more creative.

Without spending half the time beat matching, they now have time to interact with the tracks more - play with stems, loops, filters, fx, scratching etc.

It’s becoming more of a live performance

Re: The Art of DJing: Avalon Emerson (2019)

#25

Post by dylan604 » Fri, Mar 28, 2025, 10:47 PM UTC

jonwinstanley wrote: post #24

dylan604 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Call it whatever you want but you're going to be incredibly hard-pressed to find anyone that can mix as smoothly on vinyl as someone decent with CDJs. Sure it's a cool dying art and analog and all that but at this point virtually anyone trying to play vinyl out is sacrificing the listening experience for cool points That's a sad commentary on today's DJs then. Yes, there were some very bad vinyl DJs that loved the…

I agree that the beat sync tools feel like cheating for the old school DJs, but the newer generation are using it to get more creative. Without spending half the time beat matching, they now have time to interact with the tracks more - play with stems, loops, filters, fx, scratching etc. It’s becoming more of a live performance

Becoming?

May I introduce you to the DMC World Championships

https://www.dmcdjchamps.com/

edit: Also, I take offense to the insinuation that "old skool" DJs are not using new things to be more "creative". Old skool DJs are not old dawgs that can't learn new tricks.

Re: The Art of DJing: Avalon Emerson (2019)

#26

Post by jrowen » Fri, Mar 28, 2025, 10:56 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #23

jrowen wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using a tool to beat match has always been considered "cheating", but it is obvious why it is a tool. I guess in the same way that using a higher-level language than Assembly is "cheating." I'm not sure if you're referring specifically to the Sync feature (which is still largely frowned upon) or more generally analyzed beatgrids, BPM readouts and Master Tempo (which keeps the pitch in tune when you change the tempo),…

> Call it whatever you want but you're going to be incredibly hard-pressed to find anyone that can mix as smoothly on vinyl as someone decent with CDJs. Sure it's a cool dying art and analog and all that but at this point virtually anyone trying to play vinyl out is sacrificing the listening experience for cool points That's a sad commentary on today's DJs then. Yes, there were some very bad vinyl DJs that loved the…

That's a sad commentary on today's DJs then.

Not really, you just have a lot more information and tools at your disposal. It's going to be a better performance. In no other area of endeavor is anyone expected to limit themselves to decades-old technology, that would just be madness.

but that does not diminish the vinyl as a controller being superior to a tiny plastic spin wheel on a digital controller.

How is it superior? We've just covered so many ways it's inferior. I have a number of friends that are really into vinyl, I've never really "gotten" it, there's no argument other than this kind of nostalgic fetish (which I'm not saying is for nothing, but I usually just want to use whatever technology I can to create the best experience for the listener).

Re: The Art of DJing: Avalon Emerson (2019)

#27

Post by peterldowns » Fri, Mar 28, 2025, 10:58 PM UTC

GEBBL wrote: post #9

Avalon Emerson is such a great dj and producer. I’d love to see them live sometime - I’ve a great set from 2017 of theirs on SoundCloud that’s really eclectic. Love the style.

Seen her twice at Making Time and once on her album tour in Philly, definitely go out of your way --- she does an amazing live show!

Re: The Art of DJing: Avalon Emerson (2019)

#28

Post by dylan604 » Fri, Mar 28, 2025, 11:10 PM UTC

jrowen wrote: post #26

dylan604 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Call it whatever you want but you're going to be incredibly hard-pressed to find anyone that can mix as smoothly on vinyl as someone decent with CDJs. Sure it's a cool dying art and analog and all that but at this point virtually anyone trying to play vinyl out is sacrificing the listening experience for cool points That's a sad commentary on today's DJs then. Yes, there were some very bad vinyl DJs that loved the…

That's a sad commentary on today's DJs then. Not really, you just have a lot more information and tools at your disposal. It's going to be a better performance. In no other area of endeavor is anyone expected to limit themselves to decades-old technology, that would just be madness. but that does not diminish the vinyl as a controller being superior to a tiny plastic spin wheel on a digital controller. How is it supe…

If you've never used vinyl enough to "get it", then how can you say that it's inferior. The tactile experience of controlling the sound with the vinyl is so different than some digital plastic feeling controller. Yes, the higher end CDJs have a better feel to them decades later, but it is still not the same.

At this point we might as well be arguing about tab vs spaces. Using vinyl is my thing, and it is just not going to be possible to explain why I like it so much without the both of us being at the gear. Words do not convey the same as the touch

Re: The Art of DJing: Avalon Emerson (2019)

#29

Post by hnlmorg » Fri, Mar 28, 2025, 11:11 PM UTC

jrowen wrote: post #21

dylan604 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Song selection comes from hours of listening to music in the style you will be playing. Eventually, you will hear a riff from one song and it will make you think of another song. Those will be interesting to mix together. You might hear one song with a bass line that you really like with a melody line that is on the lighter side. You might then come across a song with a strong melody, but a bass line that could be pu…

Using a tool to beat match has always been considered "cheating", but it is obvious why it is a tool. I guess in the same way that using a higher-level language than Assembly is "cheating." I'm not sure if you're referring specifically to the Sync feature (which is still largely frowned upon) or more generally analyzed beatgrids, BPM readouts and Master Tempo (which keeps the pitch in tune when you change the tempo),…

> sacrificing the listener's experience for cool points (including the physical issues with reproducing sound from delicate machinery in a chaotic environment).

I was with you right up until this point.

People care about the music, not about how tight the beats line up. I’ve heard some amazing DJs who were actually shit at beat matching but had unparalleled track selection.

I’ve also heard some technically amazing DJs who were incredibly dull to listen to because their songs and set progression just went nowhere.

I’ve also had far more technical problems, both as a DJ myself and as a clubber, with modern controllers than with vinyl. The fact is there’s less to actually go wrong with vinyl. And I say this as someone who never had any love for Technics 1210s as vinyl turntables.

To give an example of “less to go wrong”, I was at one gig and the turntable stopped working. We opened it up, replaced an internal fuse and it started working again. The whole thing took literally 10 minutes to fix. If a CDJ died like that you’d be looking at replacing it with a whole new unit.

At the end of the day, I never really cared how the music was performed just as long as the music was good. Because of that, I was one of the early adopters of Ableton. But these days I have a family so just DJ vinyl at the occasional house party.

Re: The Art of DJing: Avalon Emerson (2019)

#30

Post by munificent » Fri, Mar 28, 2025, 11:43 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #19

eminence32 wrote: post #4

A few months on Hacker News there was a post about Mixxx[1], an open-source DJ software. It prompted me to download it and play around. It's very cool. Despite being a complete novice, I learned a few things after a dozen hours of playing around: * I don't have a physical controller, but I can understand why people always use them. Keyboard and mouse are not fully sufficient. * The built-in key and beat detection is…

Song selection comes from hours of listening to music in the style you will be playing. Eventually, you will hear a riff from one song and it will make you think of another song. Those will be interesting to mix together. You might hear one song with a bass line that you really like with a melody line that is on the lighter side. You might then come across a song with a strong melody, but a bass line that could be pu…

> After mixing for awhile, you will learn to listen in a different way than just someone listening to music.

There is a whole other side to song selection which is reading the room and figuring out what the audience needs next. That side isn't visible until you happen to start actually playing for an audience but it's ultimately the most important one, I think.

> If you then have to adjust the pitch for beat matching, how does that affect the key of the song and how it now mixes?

Music hardware/software can now do a pretty good job of changing speed and pitch independently. "Time-stretching" is the older term for how those algorithms work and they've gotten pretty good over the years.

I don't know how newer DJ software behaves by default you when change tempo. It's been a long time since I DJed.

But, also, producers making music for dancefloors know what they are doing and anticipate this. Most tracks made for DJs will have a long intro and outro that is mostly drums and other atonal instruments. That way DJs can mix without having to worry about keys clashing as much.

It always feels really good when you find two tracks that harmonize well with each other and you can mix their tonal parts together in the transition.

> The physical controller is precisely why I love vinyl.

100%. Beatmatching vinyl is one of those lovely zen activities, like driving a manual transmission, catching the wind in a sailboat, or hitting balls at a driving range. You're always chasing the perfectly smooth execution and never quite getting there.