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Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

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Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#51

Post by nkrisc »

j-bos wrote: post #48
nkrisc wrote: post #6

If you spend time on places that attract newbie programmers (some subreddits focused on game dev or game engines, for example) you’ll see the outcome of “I no longer think you should learn to code.” And it’s not pretty. Many, many posts of people looking for help fixing AI-generated code because the AI got it wrong and they have no idea what the code even does. Much of the time the problem is simply an invented metho…

If anything, debugging gobbledygook an AI wrote is good practice for debugging gobbledygook John from 4 years ago wrote.

Hah, but at least that code probably ran.

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#52

Post by CharlieDigital »

marjann wrote: post #9

The rise of tools like Cursor reminds me of the Industrial Revolution in France. When machines first appeared in factories, unskilled workers who didn’t understand how they operated often got injured - sometimes quite literally losing fingers. But for skilled craftsmen, these machines became force multipliers, dramatically increasing productivity and improving overall living standards. The same applies to software de…

    > But for skilled craftsmen, these machines became force multipliers, dramatically increasing productivity and improving overall living standards.
I don't know if I agree with this line of thought (is there evidence this is true?). Once you have a metal press, you precisely no longer need a blacksmith skilled at swinging a hammer; in fact, all you need is someone that can be trained to read the manual and follow the instructions -- the exact opposite of a skilled tradesman.

I do think it is like an industrialization of software engineering[0], but I don't think it favors the skilled craftsman; rather it shifts the sets of skills required and focuses more on reading code rather than writing.

[0] https://coderev.app/blog/ais-coming-industrialization-of-cod...

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#53

Post by richrichardsson »

valenterry wrote: post #47
nkrisc wrote: post #6

If you spend time on places that attract newbie programmers (some subreddits focused on game dev or game engines, for example) you’ll see the outcome of “I no longer think you should learn to code.” And it’s not pretty. Many, many posts of people looking for help fixing AI-generated code because the AI got it wrong and they have no idea what the code even does. Much of the time the problem is simply an invented metho…

> a problem that is trivially solved by the error message and documentation Then why does the AI not solve it anyways? I think understanding "the code" will eventually be as important as understanding machine code or assembly nowadays - still very important for a small number of devs, important in very rare cases for some other devs and completely irrelevant to the majority of devs.

Perhaps because "A.I." doesn't understand anything, it just makes plausible output based on its training data. LLM is a much better term, because intelligence has connotations of understanding, whereas model does not.

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#54

Post by nkrisc »

NitpickLawyer wrote: post #42
kshacker wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have played around wit AI code from time to time. I do not code routinely but I have pet personal projects that allow me to do some code and this is where I experimented. Rule number 1 and the only rule: You need to be a subject matter expert. Be it program logic or be it programming language. AI is only a helper, it will go wrong, frequently, and if you do not understand the reason for the code and the programming…

> Rule number 1 and the only rule: You need to be a subject matter expert. Strong disagree. I've been coding for 25+years but never on the front-end side. I couldn't write JS w/ pen & paper with a gun against my head. But I know what to ask and how to make sure a react component does what I want it to do, with these tools.

> head. But I know what to ask and how to make sure a react component does what I want it to do

That is the subject matter expertise that many lack.

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#55

Post by keepamovin »

That is what I did. I programmed since I was 10 on and off until around age 27 where I started basically full time after studying chemistry but not wanting to work in the lab. I was 100% FT on a project since 2018/2019 and began using AI when ChatGPT came out, but couldn't use it on this project for ages because it was all giant legacy code with lots of context (both explicit and implicit). I used it for new projects and side things. I really enjoyed it. I learned SQL and Bash and PowerShell from the collaborations. I also made my first macOS app. I have even learned a few new things in JavaScript which is my main and began to use it on my main project too. I feel so lucky to be alive at this time. It's amazing to have this way to work!

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#56

Post by jillesvangurp »

I've been programming for a few decades. I love LLMs. They make tedious things quick. Help me resolve gnarly issues. Make short work of writing unit tests. Generate oodles of boilerplate at will. Etc. It makes me more productive and less reluctant to take on risky things. By risky I mean things that formerly would have likely derailed my busy schedule because I'd get side tracked for to long and would have to de-prioritize more important stuff.

Anyway, resistance is futile. You will be assimilated ... or retired. The reality of our job is that new generations are going to come in and they'll be using all the latest tools and gadgets. That's nothing new. And I'm part of a generation that in a decade or two will be mostly on the sidelines enjoying retirement. So, I'm well aware that progress isn't going to stop over my whining and grumbling. It annoys me when I catch myself doing that. I want to be better than that.

LLMs are part of the job now. They are tools. And tools are only as good as the people wielding them. So, skill up and learn. It's not like it's very hard. If you are getting poor results, you might be doing it wrong. Figure it out; part of the job. Your mileage may vary. But there are a lot of tools and chances are you just haven't found the right one yet. Also, if some tool/llm limitation is blocking getting good results for something, wait 3 months and try again. The pace of progress is ridiculous currently.

Or better yet: become part of the solution and make your own tools. This stuff is stupidly easy. It's prompt engineering with some trivial plumbing around them mostly. And you can generate the plumbing (what, you were going to do that manually?). That's why there are so many AI tools popping up right now. Most of them won't survive very long. But there are some good ideas lurking there.

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#57

Post by ElectricalUnion »

kshacker wrote: post #21
nkrisc wrote: post #6

If you spend time on places that attract newbie programmers (some subreddits focused on game dev or game engines, for example) you’ll see the outcome of “I no longer think you should learn to code.” And it’s not pretty. Many, many posts of people looking for help fixing AI-generated code because the AI got it wrong and they have no idea what the code even does. Much of the time the problem is simply an invented metho…

I have played around wit AI code from time to time. I do not code routinely but I have pet personal projects that allow me to do some code and this is where I experimented. Rule number 1 and the only rule: You need to be a subject matter expert. Be it program logic or be it programming language. AI is only a helper, it will go wrong, frequently, and if you do not understand the reason for the code and the programming…

From my experience using ai, if you don't write a really precise description of your initial requirements in the initial prompt, and it it doesn't one-shot the answer, I don't bother asking it to fix the mistake.

Unless you're using a LLM with really long context, it's prone that some context loss will happen soner or later - when that happens, pointing errors that dropped out of the context will just result in repeated or garbage output.

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#58

Post by elpocko »

whstl wrote: post #35
nkrisc wrote: post #6

If you spend time on places that attract newbie programmers (some subreddits focused on game dev or game engines, for example) you’ll see the outcome of “I no longer think you should learn to code.” And it’s not pretty. Many, many posts of people looking for help fixing AI-generated code because the AI got it wrong and they have no idea what the code even does. Much of the time the problem is simply an invented metho…

Subreddits focused on gamedev have long stopped being about the craft itself, unfortunately. 90% of the posts are about marketing or are self-help/motivational. Anything related to art, sound or programming barely gets upvotes.

They like to talk about feelings a lot. Lots of posts about how it feels when their upcoming game reaches of wishlists on Steam, or how it felt when their low resolution pixel art game using Kenney's asset packs flopped against all odds.

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#59

Post by grumbel »

Ignoring AI would be foolish, since AI is the best programming tutor you can wish for and will speed up your learning noticeably, since you can always ask for clarification or examples when something isn't clear. It's also a great way to get random data for testing. And it will help you unearth lesser known corners of a programming language that you might have overlooked otherwise.

The downside is that at the current speed of improvement, AI might very well already be at escape velocity, where it improves faster than you, and you'll never be able to catch up and contribute anything useful. For a lot of small hobby projects, that's already the case.

I don't think there are any easy answers here. Nothing wrong with learning to code because it's fun. But as a career choice, it might not have a lot of future, but then, neither might most other white-collar jobs. Weird times are ahead of us.

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#60

Post by latexr »

NitpickLawyer wrote: post #42
kshacker wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have played around wit AI code from time to time. I do not code routinely but I have pet personal projects that allow me to do some code and this is where I experimented. Rule number 1 and the only rule: You need to be a subject matter expert. Be it program logic or be it programming language. AI is only a helper, it will go wrong, frequently, and if you do not understand the reason for the code and the programming…

> Rule number 1 and the only rule: You need to be a subject matter expert. Strong disagree. I've been coding for 25+years but never on the front-end side. I couldn't write JS w/ pen & paper with a gun against my head. But I know what to ask and how to make sure a react component does what I want it to do, with these tools.

Or, in other words, you are a subject matter expert and are agreeing with the person you’re responding to. Quote the full argument (emphasis added):

> Rule number 1 and the only rule: You need to be a subject matter expert. Be it program logic or be it programming language.

You are a subject matter in program logic, just not programming language. You are supporting their point, not disagreeing.

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