What hackers don’t know about business • Hacker News Board

Re: What hackers don’t know about business

#41

Post by xmpir » Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 10:43 AM UTC

rmserror wrote: post #16

a complexity theory error: "Just as you can reduce all NP hard problems to 3-SAT..." you can reduce all NP problems to 3-SAT because 3-SAT is NP complete. you cannot reduce all NP hard problems to 3-SAT. for example, all problems in NP reduce to SUCCINCT-SAT, an NEXP-complete (and therefore NP-hard) set. good luck reducing SUCCINCT-SAT to 3-SAT (despite how little progress in separation of classes we've made, the tim…

great response! NP-problem discussions make me happy. for those not understanding a word: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolean_satisfiability_problem#...

Re: What hackers don’t know about business

#42

Post by tfb » Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 1:56 PM UTC

dglassan wrote: post #17

mindcrime wrote: post #4

Marketing is about getting the word out. Think about ads and blog posts. That just sounds like advertising & PR. There is a lot more to marketing. To crib the definition from Wikipedia (which sounds pretty close to the one I learned): Marketing is "the activity, set of institutions, and processes for creating, communicating, delivering, and exchanging offerings that have value for customers, clients, partners, and so…

Getting the word out is only a fraction of what marketing actually is. Marketing involves: - defining who your customer is (demographics, income, etc.) - gathering feedback from the customer through surveys - using that information to iterate on products/launch new products that solve your customers pain points (if half your customers are left handed this will tell you that you need to design your product for left ha…

As a hacker, I've never taken a marketing class (or even a business class) and this all just seems like common sense to me. Pardon my arrogance, but it does seem to me like we hackers/coders are inherently better equipped for branching out into other areas of business than MBAs are at branching out into technical areas. That's not to say there aren't a high number of MBAs who can hack; it's just that a hacker's ability to quickly recognize patterns and manipulate systems to their will makes it a bit easier, whether it's code or the flow of information/relationships between people required for business/marketing.

Re: What hackers don’t know about business

#43

Post by mindcrime » Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 2:15 PM UTC

vilcans wrote: post #40

So this is what business people mean when they say programmers need to understand business? Apart from not knowing the exact nomenclature, it's embarrassing if programmers don't know these things. It's pretty much common sense. But now we know. So, when will business people understand software development?

So this is what business people mean when they say programmers need to understand business?

No. This is the thinnest sliver of a fraction of what business people think hackers should know about business. See the link above to the "outline of marketing," for example. Just marketing is a huge discipline with a very large body of knowledge... add in distribution, support, finance, business development, sales, etc., and there's a whole world of knowledge that a lot of programmers don't generally have.

Apart from not knowing the exact nomenclature, it's embarrassing if programmers don't know these things. It's pretty much common sense.

Sure, at the 60,000 foot level. But the devil is in the details.

Seriously, as popular as it is for hackers to mock "business people" and MBAs and business school, do you really think that business school doesn't exist for a reason? You think these guys just sit around and spew bullshit at each other all day, graduate, then go on to run successful, real-world businesses?

Business, especially at scale, is fracking complicated. And a successful technology company can't be all about just technology OR just "the business." You really need a holistic approach (which means somebody, or multiple somebodies have to understand the big picture) where technology and the "business side" complement each other.

So, when will business people understand software development?

Ya know, it would almost be fair for the business people to ask "when will software developers understand software development?" We, as a group, still don't do a good job of giving good estimates and delivering things that work reliably without constant hand-holding and patching. But, to be fair, that's often back to ill-defined requirements and unreasonable schedule pressure, which still - IMO - argues for the need for a holistic understanding of what's going on - that is, a shared understanding that's common to the "business people" and the hackers.

In fact, I almost wish we could get away from making the distinction "business people" and "technology people" (or "hackers") and drop the antagonistic, adversarial atmosphere that often seems to exist.

Re: What hackers don’t know about business

#44

Post by mindcrime » Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 2:17 PM UTC

james1071 wrote: post #39

Part of wisdom is knowing that the typical hacker and the typical customer are alien species, who cannot speak each other's language.

No they aren't. I wish people would quit perpetuating such nonsense. Promoting this belief just makes the problem that much worse and adds to the adversarial / antagonistic relationship between hackers and the rest of the firm (and the customers).

Re: What hackers don’t know about business

#45

Post by assemble » Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 3:25 PM UTC

ananddass wrote: post #34

kephra wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not your customer (because I prefer own root servers over cloud services, and even prefer housing over hosting) - but I think you might stick with your name, because: 1. its a known (brand) name 2. it tells where your product is strong But I suggest to change the Enterprise pricing tag: 1. Don't tell a price for enterprise. Enterprise customers have a high COCA, so price is always negotiation. 2. Offer enterprise…

Thanks for the suggestions. It's a delicate balance between appearing "complete" with the offering versus leaving headroom for customization for larger customers. Increasingly with the consumerization of the enterprise do you think that custom development, consulting etc are a must have to servicing an enterprise?

Usually. My group isn't IT, so with almost every purchase we ask for customization. (IT gets custom stuff too, but they also buy a lot more off-the-shelf stuff.) We have disqualified vendors for not being able to customize their product fast enough or well enough. We pay (a lot) for this. While we could write the code ourselves for a lot of these customizations, the vendor can do it faster and it's easier for us to buy the software than increase our headcount to do the work.

You'd be amazed at how much an enterprise is willing to pay for software, if you have the right niche and are going to make life easier for a bunch of people.

Re: What hackers don’t know about business

#46

Post by saraid216 » Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 3:50 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #4

Marketing is about getting the word out. Think about ads and blog posts. That just sounds like advertising & PR. There is a lot more to marketing. To crib the definition from Wikipedia (which sounds pretty close to the one I learned): Marketing is "the activity, set of institutions, and processes for creating, communicating, delivering, and exchanging offerings that have value for customers, clients, partners, and so…

PR is different from Marketing; PR, as I understand it, is meant for when people already know who you are and Marketing is meant for when people don't. In early stages, this is basically indistinguishable, so Marketing handles it.

Re: What hackers don’t know about business

#47

Post by iblaine » Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 5:12 PM UTC

And the death of the word 'hacker' continues...

Re: What hackers don’t know about business

#48

Post by tatsuke95 » Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 5:51 PM UTC

greghinch wrote: post #32

I'll tell you what, I'd much rather be working amongst a team of engineers who are learning to run a business than a team of MBA types who are learning the ins and outs of software development. I'd put my money on a team of engineers every time too. But I also steer clear of anyone who describes themself as a "hacker". Code is a craft, MacGuyvering something together is no way to build a sustainable business.

And I'd put my money on a team of good people that doesn't involve members who are willing to type-cast a person based on his or her degree.

Re: What hackers don’t know about business

#49

Post by vilcans » Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 9:57 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #43

vilcans wrote: post #40

So this is what business people mean when they say programmers need to understand business? Apart from not knowing the exact nomenclature, it's embarrassing if programmers don't know these things. It's pretty much common sense. But now we know. So, when will business people understand software development?

So this is what business people mean when they say programmers need to understand business? No. This is the thinnest sliver of a fraction of what business people think hackers should know about business. See the link above to the "outline of marketing," for example. Just marketing is a huge discipline with a very large body of knowledge... add in distribution, support, finance, business development, sales, etc., and…

> This is the thinnest sliver of a fraction of what business people think hackers should know about business.

This sounds like programmers need to know a lot about business. Of course knowledge is a light burden and all that, but do really programmers need to know that much outside their area of expertise? Isn't a shallow understanding enough? Otherwise, what would you need dedicated business people for?

> Ya know, it would almost be fair for the business people to ask "when will software developers understand software development?"

Good point! But then again, software development is difficult. It is hard if not impossible to estimate the schedule and cost of creating something that nobody has ever done before. And perhaps that is what the business folks need to understand. The tricky thing as a developer is explaining this without sounding like you're coming up with excuses for being late.

Re: What hackers don’t know about business

#50

Post by mindcrime » Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 10:04 PM UTC

vilcans wrote: post #49

mindcrime wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So this is what business people mean when they say programmers need to understand business? No. This is the thinnest sliver of a fraction of what business people think hackers should know about business. See the link above to the "outline of marketing," for example. Just marketing is a huge discipline with a very large body of knowledge... add in distribution, support, finance, business development, sales, etc., and…

> This is the thinnest sliver of a fraction of what business people think hackers should know about business. This sounds like programmers need to know a lot about business. Of course knowledge is a light burden and all that, but do really programmers need to know that much outside their area of expertise? Isn't a shallow understanding enough? Otherwise, what would you need dedicated business people for? > Ya know, i…

This sounds like programmers need to know a lot about business. Of course knowledge is a light burden and all that, but do really programmers need to know that much outside their area of expertise? Isn't a shallow understanding enough? Otherwise, what would you need dedicated business people for?

Sorry, my reply was coming from the point of view of "hacker as potential entrepreneur", not "hacker as employee of $FIRM." Yeah, if you're writing code for an existing business, just doing normal "business as usual" stuff, then you wouldn't need to know as much about the details of the business. I would think you'd still be better off with some knowledge of the "business side" of things though.