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How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

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Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#191

Post by jeroenhd »

pavlov wrote: post #33
bangaladore wrote: post #26

Somewhat off topic, however, I'm thoroughly convinced that there is a very high probability something is AI generated when I see Em dashes. Anyone else noticing this? ChatGPT for example almost always uses them. I'm sure they are more common in academic writing, but its now super common on boards like Reddit.

It’s largely the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon. You’ve started noticing it because you just learned about it.

It depends. Em dashes in news articles and written publications? Definitely expected. Em dashes on social media or reddit? Either someone who works in typesetting, or an LLM. Most likely an LLM, giving the dying nature of printed media.

Only typography nerds and professional printers care about things like these. Popular media, even modern professional media, hasn't been paying all that much attention.

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#192

Post by jaco6 »

energy123 wrote: post #170
mmooss wrote: post #142

Here's an easy, if not always precise way to remember: * Hyphens connect things, such as compound words: double-decker , cut-and-dried , 212-555-5555 . * EN dashes make a range between things: Boston–San Francisco flight, 10–20 years: both connect not only the endpoints, but define that all the space between is included. (Compare the last usage with the phone number example under Hyphens.) * EM dashes break things, s…

The em dash is now a GPT-ism and is not advisable unless you want people to think your writing is the output of a LLM.

[dead]

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#193

Post by jeroenhd »

Starlevel004 wrote: post #91

I refuse to care about this. A single dash is all I will ever use. I see no possible reason to use the other two.

I take this advice like "do not use a preposition to end a sentence with" and "pay close attention to 'much' and 'many'". Personal preferences from the 1800s taken as gospel by grammatical extremists, to the point where they're taken as some kind of solid rule in a vain attempt to forcefully shape language to a personal preference.

There are cases when you want to follow certain guidelines, for sure. If you write for a publication that adheres to Meriam-Webster, you'd better stay consistent and figure out the right AltGr code to type the right dashes. However, for the 99.99% of written media today, none of that matters.

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#194

Post by jeroenhd »

starfezzy wrote: post #110

We need a blog post documenting the ironic trend of people—themselves NPCs, actual human bots, just now realizing the em dash exists despite seeing it hundreds if not thousands of times before LLMs—flattering themselves by suggesting that anyone who understands the language at above a 5th grade level must be an LLM.

Taking knowledge of the three extra pixels that are "more correct" as some kind of indicator of intelligence is silly. Pretending you're somehow above them is just sad.

Must be lonely at the top.

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#195

Post by jeroenhd »

cporios wrote: post #54

if anyone's wondering, the post title is wrong -- both of the first two characters are en dashes (U+2013).

That's actually kind of funny. Looks like it's the result of HN's Unicode filtering rules, though; the original website has different characters in its tag.

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#196

Post by milesrout »

sandbach wrote: post #23

Robert Bringhurst¹ prefers the en dash in the context of setting off phrases: "The em dash is the nineteenth-century standard, still prescribed in many editorial style books, but the em dash is too long for use with the best text faces. Like the oversized space between sentences, it belongs to the padded and corseted aesthetic of Victorian typography. "Used as a phrase marker – thus – the en dash is set with a normal…

Mr Bringhurst is wrong. Em dashes have nothing to do with Victorian aesthetics.

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#197

Post by scottyeager »

efilife wrote: post #141
TomasEkeli wrote: post #128

I'm just gonna say it: this does not matter. Just use whatever you want. If you're afraid that someone is going to think less of you for it: the people who matter won't.

For those who downvoted this - how does a millimeter of difference in the length of a line matter?

Well-meaning can vary if you don't put spaces around your dashes, and a well—meaning writer wants to ease the job of the reader.

ıt might simpıy not matter though, a miııimeter here and there, ı suppose.

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#198

Post by milesrout »

Starlevel004 wrote: post #91

I refuse to care about this. A single dash is all I will ever use. I see no possible reason to use the other two.

i refuse to care about this lowercase letters are all i will ever use i see no possible reason to use the other symbols

Suit yourself, but if you refuse to learn basic grammar you will be treated like you are stupid and uneducated. Like it or not, presentation matters. Getting the basics right, including things like spelling, grammar, etc, shows a basic attention to detail without which your services will likely do more harm than good.

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#199

Post by econ »

mmooss wrote: post #142

Here's an easy, if not always precise way to remember: * Hyphens connect things, such as compound words: double-decker , cut-and-dried , 212-555-5555 . * EN dashes make a range between things: Boston–San Francisco flight, 10–20 years: both connect not only the endpoints, but define that all the space between is included. (Compare the last usage with the phone number example under Hyphens.) * EM dashes break things, s…

I've always wanted an array or object with range keys like: arr[0–2] = 123; if(arr[1.5555]>122){}

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#200

Post by ogurechny »

citrus1330 wrote: post #168
starfezzy wrote: post #110

We need a blog post documenting the ironic trend of people—themselves NPCs, actual human bots, just now realizing the em dash exists despite seeing it hundreds if not thousands of times before LLMs—flattering themselves by suggesting that anyone who understands the language at above a 5th grade level must be an LLM.

You aren't special for using em dashes, and it doesn't make someone an NPC to notice that AIs frequently make use of them.

The comment above is not about being special, it is about proper typography that is still everywhere around us: books, serious websites, anything done by real designers. Those people had to try hard to miss all of that.

No, it is not “politically incorrect” to call people lacking curiosity and/or education like you see them.

No, someone's personal preferences or transitory fashions are not automatically promoted to the holy reference for the whole world.

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