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I genuinely don't understand why some people are still bullish about LLMs

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Re: I genuinely don't understand why some people are still bullish about LLMs

#141

I get so confused on this. I play around, test, and mess with LLMs all the time and they are miraculous. Just amazing, doing things we dreamed about for decades. I mean, I can ask for obscure things with subtle nuance where I misspell words and mess up my question and it figures it out. It talks to me like a person. It generates really cool images. It helps me write code. And just tons of other stuff that astounds me…

Ive had the same experience as you, and also rather recently. I had to learn two lessons: first, what I could trust it with (as with Wikipedia when it was new), and second, what makes sense to ask it (as with YouTube when it was new). Once I got that down, it is one fabulous tool to have on my belt, among many other tools.

Thing is, the LLMs that I use are all freeware, and they run on my gaming PC. Two to six tokens per second are alright honestly. I have enough other things to take care of in the meantime. Other tools to work with.

I don't see the billion dollar business. And even if that existed, the means of production would be firmly in the hands of the people, as long as they play video games. So, have we all tripled our salaries?

If we haven't, is that because knowledge work is a limited space that we are competing in, and LLMs are an equalizer because we all have them? Because I was taught that knowledge work was infinite. And the new tool should allow us to create more, and better, and more thoroughly. And that should get us all paid better.

Right?

Re: I genuinely don't understand why some people are still bullish about LLMs

#142

I get so confused on this. I play around, test, and mess with LLMs all the time and they are miraculous. Just amazing, doing things we dreamed about for decades. I mean, I can ask for obscure things with subtle nuance where I misspell words and mess up my question and it figures it out. It talks to me like a person. It generates really cool images. It helps me write code. And just tons of other stuff that astounds me…

Two things can be true: e.g., that LLMs are incredible tech we only dreamed of having, and that they’re so flawed that they’re hard to put to productive use.

I just tried to use the latest Gemini release to help me figure out how to do some very basic Google Cloud setup. I thought my own ignorance in this area was to blame for the 30 minutes I spent trying to follow its instructions - only to discover that Gemini had wildly hallucinated key parts of the plan. And that’s Google’s own flagship model!

I think it’s pretty telling that companies are still struggling to find product-market fit in most fields outside of code completion.

Re: I genuinely don't understand why some people are still bullish about LLMs

#143

I get so confused on this. I play around, test, and mess with LLMs all the time and they are miraculous. Just amazing, doing things we dreamed about for decades. I mean, I can ask for obscure things with subtle nuance where I misspell words and mess up my question and it figures it out. It talks to me like a person. It generates really cool images. It helps me write code. And just tons of other stuff that astounds me…

I see a difference between seeing them as valuable in their current state vs being "bullish about LLMs" in the stock market sense.

The big problem with being bullish in the stock market sense is that OpenAI isn't selling the LLMs that currently exist to their investors, they're selling AGI. Their pitch to investors is more or less this:

> If we accomplish our goal we (and you) will have infinite money. So the expected value of any investment in our technology is infinite dollars. No, you don't need to ask what the odds are of us accomplishing our goal, because any percent times infinity is infinity.

Since OpenAI and all the founders riding on their coat tails are selling AGI, you see a natural backlash against LLMs that points out that they are not AGI and show no signs of asymptotically approaching AGI—they're asymptotically approaching something that will be amazing and transformative in ways that are not immediately clear, but what is clear to those who are watching closely is that they're not approaching Altman's promises.

The AI bubble will burst, and it's going to be painful. I agree with the author that that is inevitable, and it's shocking how few people see it. But also, we're getting a lot of cool tech out of it and plenty of it is being released into the open and heavily commoditized, so that's great!

Re: I genuinely don't understand why some people are still bullish about LLMs

#144

Why do people who don't like using LLMs keep insisting they are useless for the rest of us? If you don't like to use them, then simply don't use them. I use them almost daily in my job and get tremendous use out of them. I guess you could accuse me of lying, but what do I stand to gain from that? I've also seem people claim that only people who don't know how to code or people doing super simple done a million times…

The internet is full of people spouting their opinions and implying other opinions are wrong. Both sides of the AI/LLM (and all in-between) are well represented.

Re: I genuinely don't understand why some people are still bullish about LLMs

#145

I get so confused on this. I play around, test, and mess with LLMs all the time and they are miraculous. Just amazing, doing things we dreamed about for decades. I mean, I can ask for obscure things with subtle nuance where I misspell words and mess up my question and it figures it out. It talks to me like a person. It generates really cool images. It helps me write code. And just tons of other stuff that astounds me…

Could it be that people who are too bullish are being deceived by smoke and mirrors?

Re: I genuinely don't understand why some people are still bullish about LLMs

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am more than happy to pay for access to LLMs, and models continue to get smaller and cheaper. I would be very surprised if they are not far more widely used in 5 or 10 years time than they are today.

None of that means that the current companies will be profitable or that their valuations are anywhere close to justified though. The future could easily be "Open-weight models are moderately useful for some niches, no-name cloud providers charge slightly higher than the cost of electricity to use them at low profit margins".

> None of that means that the current companies will be profitable ... The future could easily be "Open-weight models are moderately useful for some niches, no-name cloud providers charge slightly higher than the cost of electricity to use them at low profit margins".

They just need to stay a bit ahead of the open source releases, which is basically the status quo. The leading AI firms have a lot of accumulated know-how wrt. building new models and training them, that the average "no-name cloud" vendor doesn't.

Re: I genuinely don't understand why some people are still bullish about LLMs

#147
I think the disconnect is that people who produce serious, researched and referenced work tend to believe that most work is like that. It is not. The majority of content created by humans is not referenced, it's not deeply researched, and a lot of it isn't even read, at least not closely. It sends a message just by existing in a particular place at a particular time. And its creation gainfully employs millions of people, which of course costs millions of dollars. That's why, warts and all, people are bullish on LLMs.

Re: I genuinely don't understand why some people are still bullish about LLMs

#148

I get so confused on this. I play around, test, and mess with LLMs all the time and they are miraculous. Just amazing, doing things we dreamed about for decades. I mean, I can ask for obscure things with subtle nuance where I misspell words and mess up my question and it figures it out. It talks to me like a person. It generates really cool images. It helps me write code. And just tons of other stuff that astounds me…

Here’s when we can start getting excited about LLMs: when they start making new and valid scientific discoveries that can radically change our world.

When an AI can say “Here’s how you make better, smaller, more powerful batteries, follow these plans”, then we will have a reason to worship AI.

When AI can bring us wonders like room temperature semiconductors, fast interstellar travel, anti-gravity tech, solutions to world hunger and energy consumption, then it will have fulfilled the promise of what AI could do for humanity.

Until then, LLMs are just fancy search and natural language processors. Puppets with strings. It’s about as impressive as Google was when it first came out.

Re: I genuinely don't understand why some people are still bullish about LLMs

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of software developers have an initial bad experience and assume it's terrible and give up on it. I feel bad for people who haven't yet experienced how useful these models are for programming. Some also just prefer manually entering everything. Those people I will never understand.

how much time do I need to devote to see anything but garbage? For reference, I program systems code in C/C++ in a large, proprietary codebase. My experiences with OpenAI(a year ago or more), and more recently, Cursor, Grok-v3 and Deepseek-r1, were all failures. The later two started out OK and got worse over time. What I haven't done is asked "AI" to whip up a more standard application. I have some ideas(an ncurses…

I think there is a big problem of expectations. People are told that it is great for software development, so they try to use it on big existing software projects, and it sucks.

Usually that's because of context: LLMs are not very good at understanding a very large amount of context, but if you don't give LLMs enough context, they can't magically figure it out on their own. This relegates AI to only really being useful for pretty self-contained examples where the amount of code is small, and you can provide all the context it needs to do its job in a relatively small amount of text (few thousand words or lines of code at most).

That's why I think LLMs are only useful right now in real-world software development for things like one-off functions, new prototypes, writing small scripts, or automating lots of manual changes you have to do. For example, I love using o3-mini-high to take existing tests that I have and modifying them to make a new test case. Often this involves lots of tiny changes that are annoying to write, and o3-mini-high can make those changes pretty reliably. You just give it a TODO list of changes, and it goes ahead and does it. But I'm not asking these models how to implement a new feature in our codebase.

I think this is why a lot of software developers have a bad view of AI. It's just not very good at the core software development work right now, but it's good enough at prototypes to make people freak out about how software development is going to be replaced.

That's not to mention that often when people first try to use LLMs for coding, they don't give the LLMs enough context or instructions to do well. Sometimes I will spend 2-3 minutes writing a prompt, but I often see other people putting the bare minimum effort into it, and then being surprised when it doesn't work very well.

Re: I genuinely don't understand why some people are still bullish about LLMs

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be fine if it were sold that way, but there is so much hype. We're told that it's going to replace all of us and put us all out our jobs. They set the expectations so high. Like remember OpenAI showing a video of it doing your taxes for you? Predictions that super-intelligent AI is going to radically transform society faster than we can keep up? I think that's where most of the backlash is coming from.

Yeah, it won't do your taxes for you, but it can sure help you do them yourself. Probably won't put you out of your job either, but it might help you accomplish more. Of course, one result of people accomplishing more in less time is that you need fewer people to do the same amount of work - so some jobs could be lost. But it's also possible that for the most part instead, more will be accomplished overall.

If it had access to my books, a current-gen frontier LLM most certainly could do my taxes. I don't understand that entire line of reasoning.
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