I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud • Hacker News Board

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#611

Post by Fargren » Tue, Mar 25, 2025, 5:55 PM UTC

publicmail wrote: post #490

publicmail wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favorite is my Bosh wall oven that uses 85C rated capacitors with practically no voltage derating for the control board that sits directly at the top of the oven. After 4 years, they gave out causing the display to dim to the point of invisibility. We’re talking about 50 cents of part savings on a $3000+ appliance here. Replaced them myself easily, but most people will end up having to call for service and end up…

Actually no - I forgot about my Bosch dishwasher that uses capacitive touch buttons. Great idea for something that is often touched with wet fingers…

Sidetrack, maybe a silly question: Under what circumstances are you touching your dishwasher with wet fingers? Plates are dry when they go in and dry when they come out if you have a decent dishwasher.

Capacitive buttons suck, but they are no worse in dishwashers than in any other appliance, in my usage at least

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#612

Post by hansvm » Tue, Mar 25, 2025, 6:01 PM UTC

wkat4242 wrote: post #196

hansvm wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> pinging back to Google and then working I still have a bricked Android phone from nonsense like that. If you: 1. Factory reset the phone while not logged in to the last Google account on the phone 2. Have the Google account invalidated (e.g., using an identity verification app on a temp noogler account, ...) You'll never be able to access the phone again. The "factory reset" maintains some internal state despite a…

That's an anti theft feature. Intended to make the phone useless to a thief. It doesn't work very well, thieves manage to get around it somehow (not so much with Apple's version) so it ends up annoying the users more than it does deter thieves. Apple is really really difficult about getting these unlocked. The carriers can't do it, you have to show them proof of purchase and have an enterprise support contract. With…

I get why the feature exists, but it's my humble opinion that a "brick your device" button shouldn't exist. Repeating myself, some alternatives with similar levels of antitheft whil being much more pleasant for the user:

- Don't enable that kind of reset functionality if that kind of antitheft is enabled

- Warn the user about the potential bricked device, and require an additional confirmation

- Don't require a ping to Google servers when you can verify account ownership just via a matched password hash

Antitheft is fine and dandy, but the implementation is bad.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#613

Post by JohnFen » Tue, Mar 25, 2025, 6:19 PM UTC

pkulak wrote: post #601

JohnFen wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an improvement, but the requirement to use an app is still a serious problem, even if it never phones home. Everything should be able to be done on the appliance itself. Installing an app should never be a requirement.

I disagree. Moving stuff to an API with full local control is a UI decision. Moving it to the cloud is a privacy and obsolescence decision. Huge difference.

Using an app has inherent security implications (it's very, very hard to trust apps). However, I agree that in terms of security, using an app with local control is better than something cloud-connected.

My primary issue with requiring the use of an app is that apps are a pain in the ass. Allow the use of an app as an option, sure, but the appliances should be able to be fully used with the controls on the appliance itself as well. Requiring the use of an app is a dealbreaker for me, but for usability reasons more than security reasons.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#614

Post by ikrenji » Tue, Mar 25, 2025, 6:24 PM UTC

pqdbr wrote: post #435

jart wrote: post #319

Jeff, you left out the juiciest part of the story, which is that the Bosch Home Connect iPhone app hoovers up your Search History data. Anyone know how much that data is worth? I made the same mistake of buying the 500 and it's just so ridiculous that I need to reveal my most intimate Google moments to a dishwasher in order to use its advanced features which I won't. When I was building Internet technology in the 199…

This is just unbelievable. However, can you provide evidence of this being true? Because this is class action level unbelievable.

it's not true and it's not technically feasible on iOS

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#615

Post by xg15 » Tue, Mar 25, 2025, 6:32 PM UTC

Maybe worth to consider that with the AI craze going on and our lovely gang of anarchocapitalists at the helm, there is now not just the technical ability, but also economic motivation and soon maybe legal impunity for manufacturers to build hidden microphones into the devices, record everything you say and upload it for AI training.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#616

Post by torginus » Tue, Mar 25, 2025, 6:39 PM UTC

tredre3 wrote: post #581

torginus wrote: post #534

>my GE Amana dishwasher, it started having weird power issues, like the controls would just not light up unless I reset the circuit breaker for a few minutes And they say EVs will outlast regular cars. On every piece of my home equipment, electronics failed before they developed mechanical issues. Power electronics, especially capacitors, and high power switching elements don't have a great track record of reliabilit…

> And they say EVs will outlast regular cars. Regular/ICE cars are fully dependant on electronics too. When a board fails, the car stops working. There's really no difference.

True, but you can't really compare 12v low voltage ECUs/infotainment with 400/800V DC contactors and tons of high power/voltage caps/FETs in inverters

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#617

Post by mmooss » Tue, Mar 25, 2025, 7:09 PM UTC

tempay wrote: post #360

mmooss wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also indicates when you are home or out, and likely an estimate of how many people live there. It could collect more data. Those pieces of data are combined with others, to form a full picture. This device doesn't need to collect it all itself. Survellance of private citizens is arguably the foundation of the very dangerous problems in societies around the world, taking away freedom, health, peace, and for most, p…

I think you might have missed OPs point being about acoustically sending data rather than using bluetooth/WiFi. If someone is close enough to your home to listen to your washing machine (or more likely, inside) they can probably hear/see you more directly.

> I think you might have missed OPs point being about acoustically sending data rather than using bluetooth/WiFi

I did! Thanks.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#618

Post by ndsipa_pomu » Tue, Mar 25, 2025, 7:26 PM UTC

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #610

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That'd probably get you banned from the store if they find you doing that and at best, it's only going to get the message out to a few customers until the store staff remove the stickers. Jeff's using his internet fame to reach far more people. I previously thought that Bosch were a good brand (only had a blender and a temperature controlled kettle from them though), but now will avoid them.

Ok, but not all of us have internet fame. I've found that my "here's where to pirate this textbook" stickers are not typically removed. Maybe sellers of dishwashers are more diligent, who knows.

Fair enough. I do enjoy seeing various subversive stickers put on lampposts etc. Maybe complaining on the internet and putting stickers would be a better tactic, but placing stickers probably takes more effort.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#619

Post by uselesswords » Tue, Mar 25, 2025, 7:42 PM UTC

nkurz wrote: post #543

jer0me wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious—what are the philosophical reasons for not having a password on your network?

It's a mixture of things, some philosophical and some practical. I live in a very rural area with poor cell phone coverage. I'm happy to provide a WiFi signal for the lost people who are in front of my house trying to figure out why their GPS has led them here. We get a few each year, because Google Maps shows the road past my house going through while in reality it's closed in winter. I also like it that I don't nee…

These are all practical reasons, not really philosophical. Unless any form of logic is philosophical but then everything is.

If your claiming your philosophical stance is setting passwords doesn’t provide security, by your own reasoning in your case that’s just a matter of practicality. There is no philosophical argument.

> More generally, I don't think that closed networks substantially improve security and I don't like the push to require them.

I mean that’s just your opinion, not a philosophical stance, and it happens to be a empirically demonstrably false one.

> I don't like technology that tries to enforce its own opinion about social norms.

This statement is so vague it’s practically useless. It can just be selectively applied against anything you don’t like. All technology is opinionated. From the layout of your keyboard to this site, everything is shaped by and shapes social norms. It would also be an opinionated technology if it decided not to ask you to set a password by default. You might as well have said I don’t like WiFi passwords because I don’t like WiFi passwords and it would’ve carried the exact same message.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#620

Post by DanielHB » Tue, Mar 25, 2025, 8:15 PM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #597

DanielHB wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An appliance could just have blutooth so it can connect to an app on your phone. With the machine not having a direct internet connection, the app can collect diagnostics, metrics and do software updates. Require you to press a button in the machine to pair it to your phone. 99% of the functionality with 0 annoyance and ~0 security/privacy risks.

But that still requires installing their app on a mobile device, and that app will still have invasive access to data and internet, etc. If we have to have an "app" I'd much rather it be a built-in web server (despite the inevitable security decay) that serves up a local-only web interface. Best scenario though is to just give me hardware controls and a simple display :-)

Apps require permissions and they can't just sniff the network willy nilly. Any IoT device on your network has way more access to privacy-related things than apps.