Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

jeffgeerling.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

571–580 of 682 posts

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#571

Post by account42 »

jjice wrote: post #531
btbuildem wrote: post #47

One thing I've learned when buying a full set of appliances couple of years ago: don't read consumer reports or reviews by randos on the internet -- instead, go to industry literature, and read reports by/for service and warranty providers. They have actual hard data on the types and frequency of problems across brands and models. But back to the main theme of the article: hell to the no was my initial attitude, and…

> don't read consumer reports or reviews by randos on the internet I like the idea of using industry literature, but I think consumer reviews have value too. Much smaller purchase, but I was considering a new travel thermos and all the professional review were praising it. As soon as I pulled up some consumer reviews though, it was almost universal that after washing it for the first time, it smelled of garlic and so…

I don't gp was suggesting to trust professional reviewers but rather professionals who actually have to work with/repair the product in question.

But I do agree that that won't cover everything. Issues that need repair are a big concern but so is usability when the damned things are working "properly".

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#572

Post by wrasee »

Aissen wrote: post #560
wrasee wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have to agree. The bottom line is that manufactures will continue to pull this trick as long as consumers keep buying. Even Jeff himself says that > I don't think we should let vendors get away with this stuff. But he _did_ let the vendor get away with it. That’s exactly what he did. He even spent a significant part of the article anticipating the push back by trying to reason why in his case he felt justified in doi…

I can hear Jeff's argument (in this very thread), that as a video creator, taking a public stance is an already impactful way to put pressure on the manufacturer. That's leverage enough for him.

Yes, his replies in a neighbor comment is exactly to that effect and of course one has to agree. But it is also notable that if i dare summarise from his parallel comment, he would have loved to return the dishwasher too but that this has already cost him so much time that “I don't know if I have the time for it.”

So here's the thing. It would be unfairly cynical to suggest that Jeff is only doing this to further his own content as a content creator. I think most would agree that Jeff is also frustrated by this and wants to push back. And as someone with influence any impact he can make is undoubtedly a good thing. It's even easier to say nothing at all.

But it is also hard to separate out to what degree the motivation to put in the effort to write an article, produce and edit a video stems from the desire for content and what stems for the desire for real change. It is somewhat telling that he had the time and motivation to produce the video (which is also a ton of work), but not to return the dishwasher?

Real advocacy has to go beyond influencers promoting causes that already align with their target audience. We have to go beyond just saying things on social media in the belief that that is somehow sufficient to "do our bit". Otherwise we can kid ourselves that we're doing good, when are we really, really? Real advocacy requires real change, and that's the hard bit.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#573

Post by account42 »

leonidasv wrote: post #201
m463 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Needless to say, none of these ever even got anywhere near being set up, I have an LG soundbar never set up, or connected to any wifi. and when my phone gets near it, it asks to connect to an airplay device. I think that might be a fatal flaw to even getting a wifi enabled device - maybe someone in the adjacent apartment can do the initial setup if you didn't. hopefully these devices have a physical component to in…

I live in an apartment. When I go to my living room, a pop-up shows on my phone (Samsung Galaxy) asking if I want to connect to a Samsung TV and cast my phone. The catch is: I don't have any Samsung TV in my home. It's the neighbours TV. It happened even when my Bluetooth was disabled, somehow the phone still reached the TV wirelessly. Thank God there's a setting to turn this "feature" off.

I have a Samsung TV (never connected to the the internet in any form, just connected to my PC via HDMI) and a Samsung phone and never had either ask anything about the other. Curious what would trigger that. Possible that I disabled things I know I won't need and forgot about it.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#575

Post by thorin »

dns_snek wrote: post #368
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dishwasher electronics are subject to elevated heat and humidity levels. A DIY solution will be extremely unreliable. An amateurish job on the power electronics can be a fire hazard and will void any insurance policy if they find out what you did.

> will void any insurance policy if they find out what you did. That sounds draconian, do you have any examples of home insurance policies that do this? Is this common in reality?

Home insurance terms are generally long and written to try to avoid paying out. Not sure of the specifics for home insurance, but car insurance is generally written to void cover if modifications have been done to the car which were not called out at the time the cover was started.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#576

Post by wrasee »

wrasee wrote: post #572
Aissen wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can hear Jeff's argument (in this very thread), that as a video creator, taking a public stance is an already impactful way to put pressure on the manufacturer. That's leverage enough for him.

Yes, his replies in a neighbor comment is exactly to that effect and of course one has to agree. But it is also notable that if i dare summarise from his parallel comment, he would have loved to return the dishwasher too but that this has already cost him so much time that “I don't know if I have the time for it.” So here's the thing. It would be unfairly cynical to suggest that Jeff is only doing this to further his…

I'll add that the fact that this article is already "22 hours ago" and is now largely now in the past somewhat proves the point. Attention has already moved on, actual opportunity to lead by example avoided and the cycle continues. And companies know this, which is why such practices are on the rise (the real evidence).

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#577

Post by thorin »

I haven't read every comment on this thread but it's highly likely that the use of wifi in the appliance is not for the convenience of the consumer, but more likely for the convenience of the designers and anyone having to service it. When building iot devices in the past I found it was a lot easier to interface over wifi than bluetooth, for all sorts of reasons. People who've tried to do both will probably appreciate why - I had to send bytestreams to bluetooth and it was quite complicated and error prone, whereas with wifi I could just make rest calls to the device. This was with an Arduino type device which was part of some customer b2b electronics we had made up for testing. Also some limitation of the Arduino meant it couldn't support bluetooth and wifi connectivity in the same build, possibly because of space limitations.

Anyway, my first thought on reading this was that all this wifi stuff was there anyway for the designers doing build and test and then someone in marketing had come up with the idea that this could also be a consumer feature.

In Europe Bosch has always been the go to quality consumer brand although there are quite a few next tier options such as Miele (which tend to be way more expensive). This is the case with domestic appliances but also with gas central heating boilers. Every year my service engineer says how pleased he is to see my Bosch boiler and how much better they are than other brands.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#578

Post by bonzini »

pashadee wrote: post #532
fransje26 wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will high-jack this top-rated comment to link to a comment further below. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43469297 This comment has a link to [0], explaining, in plain text: However, perhaps inline with the German attitudes towards privacy, the BSH "HomeConnect" appliances have a no-cloud mode built into their app without any hacks required to disconnect them from the internet. They do require a one-time conne…

“ In no-cloud mode the only way to interact with the devices is through their app, and an app isn’t always the most convenient way to interact with devices in the home.”

Note that it is "the only way to interact remotely". That is, no cloud mode disables interaction with e.g. Home Assistant but not interaction with the buttons.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#579

Post by ldng »

DanielHB wrote: post #419
schobi wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't it be great if a universal standard existed for devices sending their diagnosis via audio? If there is a microcontroller and a beeper in there anyway, at only the extra cost of internal memory? Instead of a modem-type modulation and a speaker, make use of the bare minimum piezo beepers and send something that is universally understood? All of that without FCC, no extra hardware cost, no backchannel und thus…

An appliance could just have blutooth so it can connect to an app on your phone. With the machine not having a direct internet connection, the app can collect diagnostics, metrics and do software updates. Require you to press a button in the machine to pair it to your phone. 99% of the functionality with 0 annoyance and ~0 security/privacy risks.

Why ?! Audio diagnostic is passive and (I suppose/hope) associated with a button (?).

Can we stop putting obligatory (hackable) active network devices everywhere ?

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#580

Post by nkurz »

lsaferite wrote: post #567
nkurz wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a mixture of things, some philosophical and some practical. I live in a very rural area with poor cell phone coverage. I'm happy to provide a WiFi signal for the lost people who are in front of my house trying to figure out why their GPS has led them here. We get a few each year, because Google Maps shows the road past my house going through while in reality it's closed in winter. I also like it that I don't nee…

You could always run two wifi network SSIDs (depending on your gear I guess). Then you have the ability to have open wifi for guests, but also keep your other devices on a segregated network as an extra layer in your personal security profile.

I definitely could, and technically it would be easy. This is probably the way most people would solve this. But I don't because I don't like giving in to opinionated technology. But I may end up doing so if I eventually encounter a home appliance where I really do want to connect to it.
Post reply on HN