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A Man Walks into a Bank

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Re: A Man Walks into a Bank

#81

Post by leviathant »

dalore wrote: post #26
sudonim wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, there are just 2 things preventing fraudulent checks: 1. Obscurity : Someone has to know your account number and routing code. 2. ... Ah, make that just one thing preventing fraudulent checks. It's scary. Any legitimate check, for any amount contains enough information to create a fraudulent check to drain a bank account.

What about signatures? Surely the signature has the match the one on file or the cheque bounces?

I believe that in the original write-up of this story, which spanned several pages, the author mentioned that he didn't even bother to endorse the check he'd deposited.

Re: A Man Walks into a Bank

#82

Post by adrianmsmith »

veyron wrote: post #49
derda wrote: post #45

It amazes me everytime, that in the US day-to-day banking still consists mostly of writing, sending and cashing cheques. In germany (I dont know about the rest of Europe, but I guess the situation is similar), cheques are virtually non existent. You can still get and cash them, but you will get weird looks from the person behind the bank counter, most of the time there will be a hefty fee associated with it(I once ca…

Checks are still useful because most online transfer mechanisms cost money. For example, my bank recently started charging for ACH transfers, and wires are always expensive.

It's a law or rule somewhere, that if you do electronic transfers between Euro countries (i.e. a good portion of the EU, and thus certainly within one Euro country) it has to be free. So checks don't offer that advantage here in Euro-Europe.

Re: A Man Walks into a Bank

#83

Post by dhugiaskmak »

knowtheory wrote: post #19
sudonim wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, there are just 2 things preventing fraudulent checks: 1. Obscurity : Someone has to know your account number and routing code. 2. ... Ah, make that just one thing preventing fraudulent checks. It's scary. Any legitimate check, for any amount contains enough information to create a fraudulent check to drain a bank account.

Actually... the other article that three14 linked to enumerates the reasons here: http://www.goodthink.com/writing/view_stories.cfm?id=11&... Quote: Manuel went on to inform me of things that further amazed and intrigued me: * According to Commercial Paper Law the money was now legally mine, because all checks are first assumed to be valid -- and the way a bank invalidates a check is by serving the depositor with a t…

    > But he said, "Since you deposited the check 
    > 'thinking there was no chance it would cash, 
    > and without even endorsing it' -- you didn't 
    > commit fraud."
But he did deposit the check with the thought that it would cash. He wouldn't have done it otherwise, since it wouldn't have been funny.

Re: A Man Walks into a Bank

#84

Post by iNeal »

dalore wrote: post #26
sudonim wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, there are just 2 things preventing fraudulent checks: 1. Obscurity : Someone has to know your account number and routing code. 2. ... Ah, make that just one thing preventing fraudulent checks. It's scary. Any legitimate check, for any amount contains enough information to create a fraudulent check to drain a bank account.

What about signatures? Surely the signature has the match the one on file or the cheque bounces?

Not sure about all

Re: A Man Walks into a Bank

#85

Post by isleyaardvark »

veyron wrote: post #56
DiabloD3 wrote: post #9

I'm sorry, but from what I know of banking law (ianal, nor do I play one on the Internet, but it helps to know enough to defend yourself from banks)... why isn't he in jail? I thought knowingly doing what he did constitutes bank fraud and numerous other charges?

He didn't generate a fraudulent check, so he didn't do anything illegal. It's akin to receiving a forged bill and then using it at the next place.

Knowingly using a forged bill is illegal.

Re: A Man Walks into a Bank

#86

Post by DanBC »

dhugiaskmak wrote: post #83
knowtheory wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually... the other article that three14 linked to enumerates the reasons here: http://www.goodthink.com/writing/view_stories.cfm?id=11&... Quote: Manuel went on to inform me of things that further amazed and intrigued me: * According to Commercial Paper Law the money was now legally mine, because all checks are first assumed to be valid -- and the way a bank invalidates a check is by serving the depositor with a t…

> But he said, "Since you deposited the check > 'thinking there was no chance it would cash, > and without even endorsing it' -- you didn't > commit fraud." But he did deposit the check with the thought that it would cash. He wouldn't have done it otherwise, since it wouldn't have been funny.

No, he said that he thought there was no chance it would clear. He said that he imagined the phone call from the bank to tell him that the cheque was nonsense.

I don't know if that's enough to avoid fraud.

In England he'd have to pay back the cash, and any interest earned on the cash, and he'd have to have good lawyers to get off any criminal charges. I think; IANAL etc.

Re: A Man Walks into a Bank

#87

Post by frogpelt »

derda wrote: post #45

It amazes me everytime, that in the US day-to-day banking still consists mostly of writing, sending and cashing cheques. In germany (I dont know about the rest of Europe, but I guess the situation is similar), cheques are virtually non existent. You can still get and cash them, but you will get weird looks from the person behind the bank counter, most of the time there will be a hefty fee associated with it(I once ca…

I'm not sure that it is as much this way anymore.

You are required to have direct deposit where I work and I only write checks to individuals or to businesses that don't accept debit/credit card transactions.

This story took place in 1995. Some things have changed in the last 17 years.

Re: A Man Walks into a Bank

#88

Post by mrweasel »

veyron wrote: post #79
k33l0r wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Finland cheques are pretty much completely unused. Domestic bank transfers are pretty much free for all private people and almost everyone pays all their invoices electronically via their online bank. To transfer money from person to person, the only information you need is their bank account number and name. As far I can tell, there's no way that you could use the account number in a malicious way (which is why c…

" Domestic bank transfers are pretty much free for all private people and almost everyone pays all their invoices electronically via their online bank." In the US, domestic bank transfers cost money (for example, Bank of America charges 3 dollars for ACH and 25 for sending wires; most banks charge 15 for receiving a wire), which explains to a great extent why cheques are still used. "What's more, credit and debit car…

Credit card fees aren't onerous, not here in Denmark at least, I think Finland has a similar deal.

Credit cards are issued by your bank, you pay one yearly fee, 175DKK around 30USD. More often than not the bank will give you a VISA debit card for free, or a Master Card with 30.000DKK limit, no interest if you pay the debt of each month (The bank will do the transfer from your account for free, assuming that you have the money of cause).

Paying bills online: Free Domestic bank transfer: Free Credit card / debit card: Free or fixed fee Getting a check made out: Pretty expensive

Re: A Man Walks into a Bank

#89

Post by veyron »

mrweasel wrote: post #88
veyron wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Domestic bank transfers are pretty much free for all private people and almost everyone pays all their invoices electronically via their online bank." In the US, domestic bank transfers cost money (for example, Bank of America charges 3 dollars for ACH and 25 for sending wires; most banks charge 15 for receiving a wire), which explains to a great extent why cheques are still used. "What's more, credit and debit car…

Credit card fees aren't onerous, not here in Denmark at least, I think Finland has a similar deal. Credit cards are issued by your bank, you pay one yearly fee, 175DKK around 30USD. More often than not the bank will give you a VISA debit card for free, or a Master Card with 30.000DKK limit, no interest if you pay the debt of each month (The bank will do the transfer from your account for free, assuming that you have…

Oh I meant fees to the recipient, There's a law in the US that requires CC merchants to charge the same price as they would with cash payment (for most goods; some, like gas, have special exemptions), so when you pay X dollars by credit card the merchant receives less than X dollars.

Re: A Man Walks into a Bank

#90

Post by jorgenhorstink »

In the Netherlands the use of cheques is abolished in 2002. We all use internet banking now, using (at least) two-factor authentication, and we are able to transfer money from and to our current or savings accounts. Transferring money to other bank accounts (paying rent, paying to friends etc.) is also very easy.

Most banks also have mobile applications for smartphones making money transfer even easier. I'm able to transfer money to people I've already sent money to, by just using an iPhone app, and a personal pin code. When I loose my phone, I can just block the app, just like what I'd do when I loose my plastic (credit) bank card.

In Holland we also use iDEAL [1], a nation-wide system for online shopping. It works a little bit like OAuth; I provide the webshop the bank I use, the webshop requests a money transfer, the bank creates a unique transaction, the webshop sends me to the bank, bank requests credentials and processes payment, and sends me back to the webshop proving details about the transaction. This system sounds much more secure to me than the credit card paradigm; only using a credit card number, an expiration date and a 'security code'.

I just don't understand why the USA is still using a method so susceptible to fraud.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDEAL

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