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Map Features in OpenStreetMap with Computer Vision

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Re: Map Features in OpenStreetMap with Computer Vision

#81

Post by moffkalast »

ySteeK wrote: post #78

Wait, we are not mapping things we see in sattelite images, we are mapping things that have ground truth. Please do not contribute anything ai-fantasized

Satelite images are the ground truth OSM is traced on. And the quality of those tracings varies wildly at times, I've had to fix weirdly offset shores that had roads on them placed on the sea on more than one occasion.

If this can be somewhat consistent then it'll probably do better than the average OSM contributor. Something like segmenting houses, roads, bodies of water, comparing against current data and highlighting inconsistencies for correction would be a good start though.

Re: Map Features in OpenStreetMap with Computer Vision

#82

Post by Freak_NL »

throwaway346434 wrote: post #70

Oh, great re swimming pools - solar detection is another one on my list to have a go at. I feel like a lot of the pushback here is an idea that OSM can grow from hand mapping; but as someone with 60k changesets over a decade... no amount of human volunteer enthusiasm is to the point that it can "solve" mapping at a global scale to the standards that make the map data overwhelmingly useful. I feel we need a scalable f…

> Would it be better to ingest alltheplaces opening hours to maintain this data automatically, every month?

Alltheplaces plays dangerously loose with (also) using resources clearly marked as copyrighted and protected with an API-key. As it is that project can serve as inspiration, but it is incompatible with OpenStreetMap.

Re: Map Features in OpenStreetMap with Computer Vision

#84

Post by xorcist »

daavoo wrote: post #27
boredpudding wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the 'human verification' aspect. Your docs show a simple image where the user can choose to keep a new object or not. [0] Afterwards it says: "The ones you chose to keep will be uploaded to OpenStreetMap using upload_osm.". This is uploading features automatically. The fact that it asks 'are you sure' is just silly. We all know if humans have to click yes 90% of the time, and no 10% of the time, th…

> This will generate a lot of data that volunteers will have to check and revert. This is just not true. The data can be easily identified with the `created_by` tag. And I have been reviewing myself any data uploaded with the demo (with a clear different criteria on what is good enough)

If the upstream project thinks there may be a potential problem with this, that is a problem in itself. Try not to get defensive about it, just pull the project and have another go at the problem in collaboration with upstream. Perhaps parts of the project and be useful for upstream? Perhaps another workflow could make the project better?

We all strive for better open data. I upstream feel there is a risk that automated uploads could be easier with this project, creating more boring work for them which is already enough of a problem, that animosity will be a net negative for everyone in this space. Technical solutions such as new tags or opt out schemes will not solve the problem.

Re: Map Features in OpenStreetMap with Computer Vision

#85

Post by matkoniecz »

Freak_NL wrote: post #82
throwaway346434 wrote: post #70

Oh, great re swimming pools - solar detection is another one on my list to have a go at. I feel like a lot of the pushback here is an idea that OSM can grow from hand mapping; but as someone with 60k changesets over a decade... no amount of human volunteer enthusiasm is to the point that it can "solve" mapping at a global scale to the standards that make the map data overwhelmingly useful. I feel we need a scalable f…

> Would it be better to ingest alltheplaces opening hours to maintain this data automatically, every month? Alltheplaces plays dangerously loose with (also) using resources clearly marked as copyrighted and protected with an API-key. As it is that project can serve as inspiration, but it is incompatible with OpenStreetMap.

Can you give any specific example?

I am currently working on project that would use ATP and I am vetting its spiders. So far I have not found any bad ones.

If you found one then knowing which one you mean would be highly useful!

(BTW, just marking something as copyrighted does not make it copyrighted)

Re: Map Features in OpenStreetMap with Computer Vision

#86

Post by matkoniecz »

hollerith wrote: post #73
CaptainFever wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is spam.

No it isn't.

Yes, it is. Bare link promoting mildly related product/account/project, added without explanation and one that was easily replaceable with less promotional text is a spam.

At least in my opinion.

Re: Map Features in OpenStreetMap with Computer Vision

#87

Post by matkoniecz »

throwaway346434 wrote: post #70

Oh, great re swimming pools - solar detection is another one on my list to have a go at. I feel like a lot of the pushback here is an idea that OSM can grow from hand mapping; but as someone with 60k changesets over a decade... no amount of human volunteer enthusiasm is to the point that it can "solve" mapping at a global scale to the standards that make the map data overwhelmingly useful. I feel we need a scalable f…

> Would it be better to ingest alltheplaces opening hours to maintain this data automatically, every month?

I am working on such project

See https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/what-you-think-about-i...

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mateusz%20Konieczny%20-%2...

https://codeberg.org/matkoniecz/list_how_openstreetmap_can_b...

Re: Map Features in OpenStreetMap with Computer Vision

#88

Post by Freak_NL »

matkoniecz wrote: post #85
Freak_NL wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would it be better to ingest alltheplaces opening hours to maintain this data automatically, every month? Alltheplaces plays dangerously loose with (also) using resources clearly marked as copyrighted and protected with an API-key. As it is that project can serve as inspiration, but it is incompatible with OpenStreetMap.

Can you give any specific example? I am currently working on project that would use ATP and I am vetting its spiders. So far I have not found any bad ones. If you found one then knowing which one you mean would be highly useful! (BTW, just marking something as copyrighted does not make it copyrighted)

Why ask? An example was pointed out in this thread you started:

https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/what-you-think-about-i...

There are probably more spiders configured to do this.

> (BTW, just marking something as copyrighted does not make it copyrighted)

For OpenStreetMap, it means that at the very least the Licensing Working Group should have a look. When you combine a copyright claim with directly using a third-party API with an API-key without clearance from the owner, doubly so. This was already pointed out to you in that thread.

Currently, only spiders which directly use the websites and domains of the shop chain (or its owner) are cleared for use.

Take heed of what Andy Townsend from OpenStreetMap's Data Working Group wrote:

> OSM has traditionally avoided situations where it could be legally challenged by people with more money to pay lawyers than we have, even if, in a fair and balanced process OSM might actually be in the right; for the simple reason being that any legal cost could far outweigh other costs of runnng the project.

You are a senior mapper in our project. You know this.

Re: Map Features in OpenStreetMap with Computer Vision

#89

Post by matkoniecz »

Freak_NL wrote: post #88
matkoniecz wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give any specific example? I am currently working on project that would use ATP and I am vetting its spiders. So far I have not found any bad ones. If you found one then knowing which one you mean would be highly useful! (BTW, just marking something as copyrighted does not make it copyrighted)

Why ask? An example was pointed out in this thread you started: https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/what-you-think-about-i... There are probably more spiders configured to do this. > (BTW, just marking something as copyrighted does not make it copyrighted) For OpenStreetMap, it means that at the very least the Licensing Working Group should have a look. When you combine a copyright claim with directly using a third…

> Why ask? An example was pointed out in this thread you started:

Because I wanted to know is there any other known case.

> For OpenStreetMap, it means that at the very least the Licensing Working Group should have a look.

and they were asked about first-party sources, that is why I am looking through ATP to check whether specific spiders are using only first party-sources or not

> Currently, only spiders which directly use the websites and domains of the shop chain (or its owner) are cleared for use.

AFAIK this is not accurate - for example if they would host their data at github pages website without custom domain it does not change things

Re: Map Features in OpenStreetMap with Computer Vision

#90

Post by mistrial9 »

moffkalast wrote: post #81
ySteeK wrote: post #78

Wait, we are not mapping things we see in sattelite images, we are mapping things that have ground truth. Please do not contribute anything ai-fantasized

Satelite images are the ground truth OSM is traced on. And the quality of those tracings varies wildly at times, I've had to fix weirdly offset shores that had roads on them placed on the sea on more than one occasion. If this can be somewhat consistent then it'll probably do better than the average OSM contributor. Something like segmenting houses, roads, bodies of water, comparing against current data and highlight…

> it'll probably do better than the average OSM contributor

let us reconsider this statement, please. An unexpected and powerful effect of the Openstreetmap project is iterated convergence on ground truth. No person is perfect in contribution, and few people are consistently terrible. Revision and updates, common vision towards accuracy, an appreciation of cooperative contributions.. have astounded the public and humbled critics repeatedly. Not because every key stroke and mouse click is perfect, but because iteration and plural sources have converged in a usable system of software and data.

AI inputs to Openstreetmap are not new, as noted in other comments. The path forward is bright, useful to humans and participatory in the Openstreetmap project.

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