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Deep Learning Is Not So Mysterious or Different

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Re: Deep Learning Is Not So Mysterious or Different

#131
post #2

Agreed, but PAC-Bayes or other descendants of VC theory is probably not the best explanation. The notion of algorithmic stability provides a (much) more compelling explanation. See [1] (particularly Sections 11 and 12) [1] https://arxiv.org/abs/2203.10036

Hard disagree. Your link relies on gradient descent as an explanation, whereas OP explains why optimization is not needed to understand DL generalization. PAC-Bayes, and the other different countable hypothesis bounds in OP also are quite divergent from VC dimension. The whole point of OP seems to be that these other frameworks, unlike VC dimension, can explain generalization with an arbitrarily flexible hypothesis s…

Yes, and that's the problem. What Zhang et al [2] showed convincingly in the Rethinking paper is that just focusing on the hypothesis space cannot be enough since the same hypothesis space fits real and random data so it's already too large. Therefore, these methods that focus on the hypothesis space have to talk about a bias in practice towards a better subspace, and that already requires studying the specific optimization algorithm in order to understand why it picks certain hypothesis over others in the space.

But once you are ready to do that then algorithmic stability is enough. You don't then need to think about Bayesian ensembles, or other proxies/simplifications etc. but can focus on just the specific learning setup you have. BTW algorithmic stability is not a new idea. An early version showed up within a few years of VC theory in the 80s in order to understand why nearest neighbors generalizes (it wasn't called algorithmic stability then though).

If you are interested in this, also recommend [3].

[2] https://arxiv.org/abs/1611.03530

[3] https://arxiv.org/abs/1902.04742

Re: Deep Learning Is Not So Mysterious or Different

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched the 3b1b series on neural nets years ago, and it still accounts for 95% of my understanding of AI in general. I’m not an ML person, but still. That guy has a serious gift for explaining stuff. His video on the uncertainty principle explained stuff to me that my entire undergrad education failed to!

> That guy has a serious gift for explaining stuff I'd like to challenge this idea. I don't believe he's more gifted than other people. I strongly believe that the point is he spent a lot of time and effort to get better at explaining stuff. He contemplated feedback and improved his explanations throughout the years. His videos are excellent because he poured himself into making them excellent, not because he has a g…

I think real genius is translating all the heavy symbolic manipulation into visual processes, that people can see and interpret. Suddenly, you are not seeing some abstract derivation somewhat removed from real world, but another real visual process which you pause and reason with.

That makes the whole concept tick.

Re: Deep Learning Is Not So Mysterious or Different

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non native speaker here. Will remember this. Hm... Saw that, I have used it multiple times in my comment. I was just trying to convey the meaning. What is right use of word? What would be right word to use here?

Native English speaker here. It was the right word. At the same time, while “delve” is common enough to be recognized, it’s not that commonly used in American English, so I also was wondering if this was AI generated.

Got it. What is the common phrase used in this case? Same as what sibling comment has said?

Re: Deep Learning Is Not So Mysterious or Different

#134
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard disagree. Your link relies on gradient descent as an explanation, whereas OP explains why optimization is not needed to understand DL generalization. PAC-Bayes, and the other different countable hypothesis bounds in OP also are quite divergent from VC dimension. The whole point of OP seems to be that these other frameworks, unlike VC dimension, can explain generalization with an arbitrarily flexible hypothesis s…

Yes, and that's the problem. What Zhang et al [2] showed convincingly in the Rethinking paper is that just focusing on the hypothesis space cannot be enough since the same hypothesis space fits real and random data so it's already too large. Therefore, these methods that focus on the hypothesis space have to talk about a bias in practice towards a better subspace, and that already requires studying the specific optim…

But it's not a problem, it's actually a good thing that OP's explanation is more general. One of the main points in the OP paper is that you do not in fact need proxies or simplification. You can derive generalization bounds that do explain this behavior, without needing to rely on optimization dynamics. This exactly responds to the tests set forth in Zhang et al. OP does not "rely on Bayesian ensembles, or other proxies/simplifications". That seems to be a misunderstanding of the paper. It's analyzing the solutions that neural networks actually reach, which differentiates it from a lot of other work. It also additionally shows how other simple model classes can reproduce the same behavior, and these reproductions do not depend on optimization.

"and that already requires studying the specific optimization algorithm in order to understand why it picks certain hypothesis over others in the space." But the OP paper explains how even "guess and check" can generalize similarly to SGD. It's becoming more well understood that the role of the optimizer may have been historically overstated for understanding DL generalization. It seems to be more about loss landscapes.

Don't get me wrong, these references you're linking are super interesting. But they don't take away from the OP paper which is adding something quite valuable to the discussion.

Re: Deep Learning Is Not So Mysterious or Different

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your claim is that there are instructions, data, or both that are unable to be determined in what, is by definition, a fully deterministic machine?

By an individual person, yes. I claim that there exists no single human capable of fully understanding the totality of the software and hardware down to the individual transistor level.

That's a very wrong statement. Pretty sure I could explain all the maths, all the physics, all the electronics, all the operating systems and all the user space of a single high level language operation, when I was a fresh graduate. Now, I have forgotten most of the physics and electronics, since the university was quite some time ago, but feel free to ask any decent student of an IT bachelor, they should be able to pretty much build the PC from scratch. Sure, modern processors and whatnot add a bunch of optimizations, but you seem to really overstate the complexity of the computer.

Re: Deep Learning Is Not So Mysterious or Different

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By an individual person, yes. I claim that there exists no single human capable of fully understanding the totality of the software and hardware down to the individual transistor level.

That's a very wrong statement. Pretty sure I could explain all the maths, all the physics, all the electronics, all the operating systems and all the user space of a single high level language operation, when I was a fresh graduate. Now, I have forgotten most of the physics and electronics, since the university was quite some time ago, but feel free to ask any decent student of an IT bachelor, they should be able to…

We're talking about two separate things.

I'm talking about understanding, fully, the state of the CPU. Not just the conceptual operation of the CPU. Like, given a specific, modern AMD or Intel CPU, understand fully all states of all transistors.

Re: Deep Learning Is Not So Mysterious or Different

#137

> rather than restricting the hypothesis space to avoid overfitting, embrace a flexible hypothesis space, with a soft preference for simpler solutions that are consistent with the data. This principle can be encoded in many model classes, and thus deep learning is not as mysterious or different from other model classes as it might seem. How does deep learning do this? The last time I was deeply involved in machine le…

Yeah that's just regularized optimization which is actually just the Bayesian Learning Rule which is actually just variational Bayes.

Re: Deep Learning Is Not So Mysterious or Different

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched the 3b1b series on neural nets years ago, and it still accounts for 95% of my understanding of AI in general. I’m not an ML person, but still. That guy has a serious gift for explaining stuff. His video on the uncertainty principle explained stuff to me that my entire undergrad education failed to!

> That guy has a serious gift for explaining stuff I'd like to challenge this idea. I don't believe he's more gifted than other people. I strongly believe that the point is he spent a lot of time and effort to get better at explaining stuff. He contemplated feedback and improved his explanations throughout the years. His videos are excellent because he poured himself into making them excellent, not because he has a g…

I disagree. He has always been excellent from the beginning of his Youtube career. Maximum potential skill levels and skill acquisition/growth rates vary from person to person. I think most people wouldn't have as much success even with twice as many hours invested in the 4 separate crafts (!) of mathematics communication, data visualization, video animation, and video editing. I know I wouldn't, and I consider technical communication one of my strong suits.

Everyone can improve with practice, but some people really are gifted.

Re: Deep Learning Is Not So Mysterious or Different

#139
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and that's the problem. What Zhang et al [2] showed convincingly in the Rethinking paper is that just focusing on the hypothesis space cannot be enough since the same hypothesis space fits real and random data so it's already too large. Therefore, these methods that focus on the hypothesis space have to talk about a bias in practice towards a better subspace, and that already requires studying the specific optim…

But it's not a problem, it's actually a good thing that OP's explanation is more general. One of the main points in the OP paper is that you do not in fact need proxies or simplification. You can derive generalization bounds that do explain this behavior, without needing to rely on optimization dynamics. This exactly responds to the tests set forth in Zhang et al. OP does not "rely on Bayesian ensembles, or other pro…

Thank you for the great discussion. You've put your finger on the right thing I think. We can now dispense with the old VC-type thinking (i.e., that it's because the hypothesis space is not complex enough that we get generalization). Instead now the real question is this: is it the loss landscape itself, or the particular way in which the landscape is searched that leads to good generalization in deep learning.

One can think of perhaps an "exhaustive" search with say God's computer of the loss landscape and pick an arbitrary point among all the points that minimize (or are close to the minimum). Or with our computers we can merely sample. But in both cases, it's hard to see how one would avoid picking "memorization" solutions in the loss landscape. Recall that in an over-parameterized setting, there will be many solutions that have the same low training loss but very different test losses. The reference in my original post [1] shows a nice example with a toy overparameterized linear model (Section 3) where multiple linear models fit the training data but they have very different generalizations. (It also shows why GD ends up picking the better-generalizing solution.)

Now people have argued that the curvature around the solution is a distinguishing factor between well-generalizing solutions and not. Though already now we are moving into the territory of how to sample the space i.e. the specifics of the searching algorithm (a direction you may not like), but even if we press ahead, it's not a satisfactory explanation since in a linear model with L2 loss, the curvature is the same everywhere as Zhang et al. pointed out. So the curvature theories fail for the simplest case already unless one believes that somehow linear models are fundamentally different from deeper and non-linear models.

[1] points out other troubling facts about the curvature explanation (Section 12), but one I like more than the others is the following: As per curvature theories the reason for good generalization at the start of the training process is fundamentally different from the reason from good generalization at the end of the training process. (As always, generalization is just the difference between test and training, and so good generalization is when that difference is small; not necessarily that the test loss is small.) At the start of the GD training process curvature theories would not be applicable (we just picked a random point after all) and so they would hold that we get good (in fact, perfect) generalization because we didn't look at the training data. However, at the end of training, they say we have good generalization because we found a shallow minima. This lack of continuity is disconcerting. In contrast, stability based arguments provide a continuous explanation: the longer you run SGD the less stable it is (so don't run it too long and you'll be fine since you'll achieve an acceptable tradeoff between lowering the loss and overfitting).

[1]: https://arxiv.org/abs/2203.10036

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