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FOSS infrastructure is under attack by AI companies

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Re: FOSS infrastructure is under attack by AI companies

#551

Post by clvx »

programd wrote: post #478
enrico204 wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, that is not a bad idea. @xena maybe Anubis v2 could make the client participate in some sort of SETI@HOME project, creating the biggest distributed cluster ever created :-D

Oh come now, clearly Anubis should make the clients mine bitcoin as proof of work, with a split for the website and the author. Oh dear, somebody is going to implement this in about an hour, aren't they....

a service that allows you expose and host your data in a private manner getting a cut from whatever token your endpoints have generated.

Re: FOSS infrastructure is under attack by AI companies

#552

Post by consteval »

eadmund wrote: post #334
rectang wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Look at the primary economic claim offered by AI companies: to end the need for a substantial portion of all jobs on the planet. And this is why AI training is not "fair use". The AI companies seek to train models in order to compete with the authors of the content used to train the models. A possible eventual downfall of AI is that the risk of losing a copyright infringement lawsuit is not going away. If a court d…

> The AI companies seek to train models in order to compete with the authors of the content used to train the models. When I read someone else’s essay I may intend to write essays like that author. When I read someone else’s code I may intend to write code like that author. AI training is no different from any other training. > If a court determines that the AI output you've used is close enough to be considered a de…

> AI training is no different from any other training.

Yes, it is. One is done by a computer program, and one is done by a human.

I believe in the rights and liberties of human beings. I have no reason to believe in rights for silicon. You, and every other AI apologist, are never able to produce anything to back up what is largely seen as an outrageous world view.

You cannot simply jump the gun and compare AI training to human training like it's a foregone conclusion. No, it doesn't work that way. Explain why AI should have rights. Explain if AI should be considered persons. Explain what I, personally, will gain from extending rights to AI. And explain what we, collectively, will gain from it.

Re: FOSS infrastructure is under attack by AI companies

#553

Post by fuzztester »

dalke wrote: post #515
QuadrupleA wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems crazy - millions of $ on GPUs but they can't afford some cheap storage? And direct network scraping seems super high latency. Although I guess a massive pretaining run might cycle through the corpus very slowly. Dunno, sounds fishy.

I see ChatGPT's bots pull down all of my Python wheels every couple of weeks. Wheels that haven't changed in years, with a "Last-Modified" and "ETag" that haven't changed. The only thing that makes sense to me is it's cheaper them to re-pull and re-analyze the data than to develop a cache.

Or, could it be, just possibly be (gasp), that some of the devs at these "hotshot" AI companies are just ignorant or lazy or pressured enough, so as to not do such normal checks? Wouldn't be surprised if so.

Re: FOSS infrastructure is under attack by AI companies

#554

Post by fuzztester »

csydas wrote: post #76
QuadrupleA wrote: post #46

Isn't this just poor, sloppy crawler implementation? You shouldn't need to fetch a repo more than once to add it to a training set.

You are correct it's poor and sloppy, but it's not "just" that. It's a lack of concern over the effects of their poor/sloppy crawler implementation. The poor implementation is not really relevant, it's companies deciding they own the internet and can take whatever they want, let everyone else deal with the consequences. The companies do not care what the impact of their ai non-sense is..

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43429532

Re: FOSS infrastructure is under attack by AI companies

#555

Post by sozforex »

Ray20 wrote: post #439
forgetfreeman wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started a borderline smug response here pointing out how bullshit white collar and service jobs* where in deep shit but folks who actually work for a living would be fine. I scrapped it halfway through when it occurred to me that if everyone's broke then by definition nobody's spending money on stuff like contractors, mechanics, and other hardcore blue collar trades. Toss in AI's force multiplication of power deman…

>if everyone's broke >nobody's spending money on stuff like contractors, mechanics, and other hardcore blue collar trades. Why would this happen? Money is simply a medium of exchange of values that this contractors, mechanics and other hardcore blue collar trades are creating. How can they be broke, if Ai doesn't disturb their ability to create values and exchange it?

When ~white collar [researchers, programmers, managers, salespeople, translators, illustrators, ...] lose their income/jobs to AI's -> lose their ability to buy products/services and at the same time try to shift in mass to doing some kind of manual work, do you think that would not affect incomes of those who are the current blue collar class?

Re: FOSS infrastructure is under attack by AI companies

#557

Post by grotorea »

programd wrote: post #478
enrico204 wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, that is not a bad idea. @xena maybe Anubis v2 could make the client participate in some sort of SETI@HOME project, creating the biggest distributed cluster ever created :-D

Oh come now, clearly Anubis should make the clients mine bitcoin as proof of work, with a split for the website and the author. Oh dear, somebody is going to implement this in about an hour, aren't they....

Just in case you didn't know, cryptominers in Javascript are already thing. Firefox even blocks them.

Re: FOSS infrastructure is under attack by AI companies

#558

Post by fuzztester »

arkh wrote: post #338

I think the solution to this problem is the same as with scammers and is an analog one. Bust the kneecaps of all the people responsible for those crawlers. Publicly. And all of them: from the person entering the command to the CEO of the company going through all the middle management. You did not go against this policy? Intact kneecaps are a privilege which just got revoked in your case.

Busting their kneecaps is too mild. Shoot them in the kneecaps, Jack Higgins / Liam Devlin / IRA style:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Higgins

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liam_Devlin

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Army

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneecapping

Re: FOSS infrastructure is under attack by AI companies

#559

Post by sozforex »

kmeisthax wrote: post #418
maaaaattttt wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have this line of thought as well but then I wonder, if we are all out of jobs and out of substantial capital to spend, how do these owners make money ultimately? It's a genuine question and I'm probably missing something obvious. I can see a benevolant/post-scarcity spin to this but the non-benevolant one seems self defeating.

The non-benevolent future is not self-defeating; we have historical examples of depressingly stable economies with highly concentrated ownership. The entirety of the European dark ages was the end result of (western[0]) Rome's elites tearing the planks out of the hull of the ship they were sailing. The consequence of such a system is economic stagnation, but that's not a consequence that the elites have to deal with.…

You may find "Technofeudalism: What Killed Capitalism" book to your liking.

Re: FOSS infrastructure is under attack by AI companies

#560

Post by Ray20 »

moooo99 wrote: post #527
Ray20 wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a laughable idea. Job market is formed by the presence of needs and the presence of the ability to satisfy them. AI - does not reduce the ability to satisfy needs, so only possible situation where you won't be able to compete - is either the socialists will seize power and ban competition, or all the needs will be met in some other ways. In any other situation - there will be job market and the people will com…

> there will be job market and the people will compete in it maybe there will be. I'm sure there also is a market for Walkman somewhere, its just exceedingly small. The proclaimed goal is to displace workers on a grand scale. This is basically the vision of any AI company and literally the only way you could even remotely justify their valuations given the heavy losses they incur right now. > Job market is formed by…

>The proclaimed goal is to displace workers on a grand scale.

It doesn't matter. What you need to understand - is that in the source of the job market is needs, ability to meet those needs and ability to exchanges those ability on one another. And nothing of those are hindered by AI.

>Many industrial nations are largely service based economies with a lot of white collar jobs in particular.

Again: in the end of the day it doesn't change anything. In the end of the day you need a cooked dinner, a built house and everything else. So someone must build a house and exchange it for a cooked dinners. That's what happening (white collar workers and international trade balance included) and that's what job market is. AI doesn't changes the nature of those relationship. Maybe it replace white collar workers, maybe even almost all of them - that's only mean that they will go to satisfy another unsatisfied needs of other people in exchange for satisfying their own, job marker won't go anywhere, if anything - amount of satisfied needs will go up, not down.

>if white collar workers are kicked out of their jobs en masse, it also negatively affects the "value" of the remaining people with employment

No, it doesn't. I mean it does if they would be simply kicked out, but that's not the case - they would be replaced by AI. So the society get all the benefits that they were creating plus additional labor force to satisfy earlier unsatisfied needs.

>exhibit A: tech job marker right now

I don't have the stats at hand, but aren't blue collar workers doing better now than ever before?

>I am really having a hard time understanding where this obsession with mythical socialism comes from

From the history of the 20th century? I mean not obsession, but we we are discussing scenarios of the disappearance (or significant decrease) of the job market, and the socialists are the most (if not only) realistic reason for that at the moment.

>The reality we live in is largely capitalistic and a striving towards a monopoly

Yeas, and this monopoly, the monopoly, are called "socialism".

>corporation, which is only kept in check by government regulations.

Generally corporation kept in check by economic freedom of other economic agents, and this government regulations that protects monopolies from free market. I mean why would government regulate in other direction? Small amount of big corporations are way easier for government to control and get personal benefits from them.

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