Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to do their prison time

slate.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 101 posts

Re: In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to do their prison time

#51

Post by giftedbygod »

tedunangst wrote: post #45
KoulMomo wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bernie Madoff's mistake is that he screwed over other rich people.

I like (as in don't like) how that's the excuse for every counter example. Just like how Martha Stewart only went to jail because she didn't play golf with the right people.

In 1980s hundreds of banksters went to jail in loans&savings scandal. US went to the dogs: 1. Militarily: terrorism as tactics is just effective (especially cost-effective). US looks like it is trying to kill a fly using a machine gun. Good luck! 2. Politically: corrupt to the core. As weak as never before. 3. Economically: capitalism is really not about being in debt. It is about capital accumulation via savings. Currently, the US is the biggest debtor in the History of the World. 600% gdp - that's our total debt.

Re: In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to do their prison time

#52

Post by Retric »

Karunamon wrote: post #15
rprasad wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is because prison is not the punishment for most of those offenses. Before you say shit about the U.S. judicial system, you should learn something about it. SEC and FTC violations are civil offenses . The punishment for civil offenses are fines . Plenty of firms and higher-ups have paid fines. Jail time only applies in cases where deliberate fraud is proven to have occurred. We all know that the finance guys wer…

>We all know that the finance guys were too reckless in their pursuit of profits. But recklessness is not a crime (and indeed, the only crime in the U.S. system for which "recklessness" is relevant is manslaughter/murder). Perhaps this is a facet of law that people should lobby to get changed. The kind of wanton disregard shown by the finanical sector during the recent meltdown damn well should be a crime, if it isn'…

If recklessness while driving is a crime by it's self.

There are plenty of other examples, but many of these people went well past recklessness into fraud. EX1: If you setup a deal, know it's terrible and bet your own money that it will fail while advising your clients to do the deal with their money then your committing fraud. EX2: If your training documents tell people to commit fraud then your directly culpable.

Re: In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to do their prison time

#53

Post by kaptain »

A typical response I see on HN (and on other forums) in response to failings in other countries (e.g. acts of terrorism, corruption, failure of government support, etc) is to find some sarcastic analogy to compare it to in the US. The Chinese government has gotten on the bandwagon with its own publication of the US's human rights violations (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-05/25/c_1316113...). I found this humorous.

It would be naïve to think that the USA (I'm picking on the USA because I am an American citizen) is the perfect country. I haven't lived in other countries long enough to be able to compare, but I /can/ compare the experience between China and the US and it makes me grateful to be a US citizen.

The truth is, there is no real comparison between China and the US: I get questions about corruption in the US all the time and I always answer that there /is/ corruption in the US but not in the endemic/pervasive way that we see it in China. The media is more open than in China, the government process is more transparent.

My business partner and I are in the middle of doing a training/internship (simple LAMP application development) for students at a local university. This isn't a top tier university: it's a third-tier university in the capital of one of the poorest regions in the country. There's a lot of potential here but when we asked people if they had any aspirations to entrepreneurship, we mostly get a 'no'. The lack of mobility for the common person is evident here.

No matter what the US's failures are what it has that the Chinese system (note that I didn't say government, because some of the issues here are cultural) doesn't have is "opportunity". There's a lot of unrealistic optimism here amongst college-age students (i.e. "I can do it if I try.") but there is a dark understanding that this is severely limited by what is available to them after they graduate. It's actually really sad: people here are in love with pieces of paper that 'qualify' you for a job. But with an overabundance of college graduates (in a system where cheating is normal), the value of a college degree is lessened. So you have a huge population of mid-20's that paid large sums of money for degrees that are largely worthless (i.e. the degrees didn't fulfill the better life that they promised).

China has aspirations to be the world's best, but it won't be until it can find a way to empower its own people.

Re: In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to do their prison time

#54

Post by Spooky23 »

rprasad wrote: post #12
ck2 wrote: post #5

In the USA they just buy the way out of the system - I mean look at all the people in prison for the default swaps and banking scandals. Oh wait, there aren't any.

That is because prison is not the punishment for most of those offenses. Before you say shit about the U.S. judicial system, you should learn something about it. SEC and FTC violations are civil offenses . The punishment for civil offenses are fines . Plenty of firms and higher-ups have paid fines. Jail time only applies in cases where deliberate fraud is proven to have occurred. We all know that the finance guys wer…

In the United States, a US Attorney with the political will and backing could convict virtually any citizen.

One broad statute is honest services fraud. Basically, if you have a fiduciary duty to someone and commit an act that could reasonably be expected cause economic harm, you've committed a felony.

There are many other laws that could be used to lock up many bankers, assuming the will existed to do so.

Re: In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to do their prison time

#55

Post by tedunangst »

giftedbygod wrote: post #51
tedunangst wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like (as in don't like) how that's the excuse for every counter example. Just like how Martha Stewart only went to jail because she didn't play golf with the right people.

In 1980s hundreds of banksters went to jail in loans&savings scandal. US went to the dogs: 1. Militarily: terrorism as tactics is just effective (especially cost-effective). US looks like it is trying to kill a fly using a machine gun. Good luck! 2. Politically: corrupt to the core. As weak as never before. 3. Economically: capitalism is really not about being in debt. It is about capital accumulation via savings. Cu…

Is your comment related to mine or was the reply link just conveniently placed?

Re: In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to do their prison time

#56

Post by kwanbis »

kaptain wrote: post #53

A typical response I see on HN (and on other forums) in response to failings in other countries (e.g. acts of terrorism, corruption, failure of government support, etc) is to find some sarcastic analogy to compare it to in the US. The Chinese government has gotten on the bandwagon with its own publication of the US's human rights violations ( http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-05/25/c_1316113... ). I found…

Kinda off topic, but if you are from USA, you are a United States citizen, american is anybody who is born on the continental america (north, central and south).

Re: In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to do their prison time

#57

Post by LargeWu »

kwanbis wrote: post #56
kaptain wrote: post #53

A typical response I see on HN (and on other forums) in response to failings in other countries (e.g. acts of terrorism, corruption, failure of government support, etc) is to find some sarcastic analogy to compare it to in the US. The Chinese government has gotten on the bandwagon with its own publication of the US's human rights violations ( http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-05/25/c_1316113... ). I found…

Kinda off topic, but if you are from USA, you are a United States citizen, american is anybody who is born on the continental america (north, central and south).

I have never heard anybody, anywhere, ever, refer to somebody from the North or South American continents, who is not a US citizen as an "American". "The Americas" commonly refers to both continents, but I've never heard anybody call a non US-citizen "American". Where is this a common usage?

Re: In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to do their prison time

#58

Post by cheshirecat »

kaptain wrote: post #53

A typical response I see on HN (and on other forums) in response to failings in other countries (e.g. acts of terrorism, corruption, failure of government support, etc) is to find some sarcastic analogy to compare it to in the US. The Chinese government has gotten on the bandwagon with its own publication of the US's human rights violations ( http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-05/25/c_1316113... ). I found…

Try asking about it in a better Chinese university. 5000+ startups listed on 17startup.com and growing everyday.

Besides, http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/policies/sme/facts-figures-an...

Entrepreneurial attitudes in Europe compared to the US and Asia // Chinese people have the strongest preference for self-employment (71%), Japanese people the weakest (39%). Similarly, Chinese think it is quite possible to become one’s own boss (49%). In Japan only 12% consider this career option possible. // A higher ratio of Chinese (40%) than Americans (38%) declare that they have first-hand experiences in starting a business. In Europe and Japan these figures are rather low (22% and 20%), even lower than in South Korea (31%). In the US, entrepreneurs enjoy a good reputation. 73% of US citizens questioned in this survey said that they have a favourable image of entrepreneurs. In Europe, at least about half of the population (49%) has a favourable image of entrepreneurs. In China the ratio is only 40%, in Japan (32%) and Korea (30%) even lower.

The richest person in China did get sent to prison: 14 years for stock market manipulation (cant imagine how many hedge fund PMs will be there if people enforce this in every country. personally I think the punishment is severe). Nothing to brag about, but he went there himself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huang_Guangyu The "body double"-stuff is rare and can likely happen in those poor undeveloped regions in China, where money can buy you anything. In better developed regions, the officers won't risk it, unless you are exceptionally "connected" I guess. Medias and Internet are quite good at revealing such scandals in China nowadays, which is why the Chinese government is so afraid of them.

Re: In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to do their prison time

#59

Post by corin_ »

kwanbis wrote: post #56
kaptain wrote: post #53

A typical response I see on HN (and on other forums) in response to failings in other countries (e.g. acts of terrorism, corruption, failure of government support, etc) is to find some sarcastic analogy to compare it to in the US. The Chinese government has gotten on the bandwagon with its own publication of the US's human rights violations ( http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-05/25/c_1316113... ). I found…

Kinda off topic, but if you are from USA, you are a United States citizen, american is anybody who is born on the continental america (north, central and south).

Technically correct, but I guess it depends on context, both cultural and conversational. In the UK for example, "America" and "American" always refer to US not the continent, unless there's specific context surrounding it to suggest otherwise. I believe that's generally the case in the US as well, and I suspect (but could be wrong) in most countries?

Re: In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to do their prison time

#60

Post by mitchty »

LargeWu wrote: post #57
kwanbis wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kinda off topic, but if you are from USA, you are a United States citizen, american is anybody who is born on the continental america (north, central and south).

I have never heard anybody, anywhere, ever, refer to somebody from the North or South American continents, who is not a US citizen as an "American". "The Americas" commonly refers to both continents, but I've never heard anybody call a non US-citizen "American". Where is this a common usage?

From what I've found its really only from predominantly Spanish speaking university students in South America.

It also ignores most colloquial usage of the terms America and American in English. While technically correct, it is unlikely to occur. Americans are citizens of the United States of America. Just as Mexicans are citizens of Estados Unidos Mexicanos. But we shorten them to Mexicans as well.

Its more useful in either case to just list your nationality in either case. Unless people seem to want to identify with an Italian name for both continents I don't see where getting all up in arms over Americans referring to a citizen of the US. USian is an alternative, but lets be honest, it rolls off the tongue horridly and is unlikely to catch on.

Post reply on HN