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HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

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Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#111

Post by cyanmagenta »

eptcyka wrote: post #77
cyanmagenta wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd far rather have the OS provide a verified safe socket layer There is work going on right now[1] to implement the QUIC protocol in the linux kernel, which gets used in userspace via standard socket() APIs like you would with TCP. Of course, who knows if it’ll ultimately get merged in. [1] https://github.com/lxin/quic

Yea, but does the kernel then also do certificate validation for you? Will you pin certs via setsockopt? I think QUIC and TLS are wide enough attack surfaces to warrant isolation from the kernel.

> but does the kernel then also do certificate validation for you

No, the asymmetric cryptography is all done in userspace. Then, post-handshake, symmetric cryptography (e.g., AES) is done in-kernel. This is the same way it works with TCP if you’re using kTLS.

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#113

Post by kccqzy »

elcritch wrote: post #19
kccqzy wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comparison with IPv6 is interesting. IPv6 isn't mainly driven by open source or community. It is driven by the needs of large corporations, including both ISPs and tech companies. ISPs like T-mobile wanting to run an IPv6-only backbone network, and tech companies like Apple forcing every app in the App Store to work in IPv6-only mode (DNS64+NAT64). New operating system levels features for IPv6 are often proposed…

IPv6 always seemed to me to be driven by a certain class of purist networking geeks. Then some corporations started getting on board like you said, but many couldn't care less.

Oh many purist networking geeks joined large corporations so that these corporations began to push IPv6 in a direction set by the geeks. They understood that as independent geeks they have essentially no say in the evolution of IPv6. My favorite example here is Android refusing to support stateful DHCPv6; it's clear that it's being pushed by purist networking geeks inside Google.

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#114

Post by nolist_policy »

shermantanktop wrote: post #84
hypeatei wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> side note: sad that .NET and C# are not considered "major I've said it before on here, but the tech community severely underrates .NET today. It's not Windows only (and hasn't been for ~8 years) plus C# is a very nice language. F# is also an option for people who like functional languages. I'd highly recommend giving it a try if you haven't already.

.NET suffers from the long lasting reputational taint of Microsoft. It was seen as the sworn enemy of open source and Linux, and for good reason. Today’s MS is not what it was back then. But long memories are not a bad thing, really. If .NET suffers a bit from some unfair perception, perhaps that can remind MS and others what happens when you take an aggressively adversarial approach.

I would say that .NET is the best example that Microsoft has not changed: https://isdotnetopen.com/

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#115

Post by [deleted] »

TheRealPomax wrote: post #101
lemagedurage wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A "few extra ms" is up to 3 roundtrips difference, that's easily noticeable by humans on cellular. For all the CPU optimisations we're doing, cutting out a 50ms roundtrip for establishing a HTTP connection feels like a great area to optimize performance.

And yet, compared to the time you're waiting for that mast head jpeg to load, plus an even bigger "react app bundle", also completely irrelevant. HTTP/3 makes a meaningful difference for machines that need to work with HTTP endpoints, which is what Google needed it for: it will save them (and any other web based system similar to theirs) tons of time and bandwidth, which at their scale directly translates to dollars…

[deleted]

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#116

Post by celsoazevedo »

TheRealPomax wrote: post #101
lemagedurage wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A "few extra ms" is up to 3 roundtrips difference, that's easily noticeable by humans on cellular. For all the CPU optimisations we're doing, cutting out a 50ms roundtrip for establishing a HTTP connection feels like a great area to optimize performance.

And yet, compared to the time you're waiting for that mast head jpeg to load, plus an even bigger "react app bundle", also completely irrelevant. HTTP/3 makes a meaningful difference for machines that need to work with HTTP endpoints, which is what Google needed it for: it will save them (and any other web based system similar to theirs) tons of time and bandwidth, which at their scale directly translates to dollars…

Almost every optimization is irrelevant if we apply the same reasoning to everything. Add all savings together and it does make a difference to real people using the web in the real world.

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#117

Post by jabart »

xpressvideoz wrote: post #35
CharlieDigital wrote: post #2

> At the same time, neither QUIC nor HTTP/3 are included in the standard libraries of any major languages including Node.js, Go, Rust, Python or Ruby. .NET actually looking like it has decent support for any teams that are interested[0] (side note: sad that .NET and C# are not considered "major"...). There is an open source C library that they've published that seems rather far along[1] Support for Windows, Linux[2],…

> side note: sad that .NET and C# are not considered "major"... Even Microsoft does not use C# for their new projects. See the new TypeScript compiler that is being rewritten in Go. So I think it is safe to say C# is indeed a minor language.

The interviews with the Typescript dev doing the rewrite will tell you why. Switching their compiler to Go was a quick transition since Go matched their current JS build. The dev also wanted to use go, and use functional programming. It would have required more work to switch from functional to OOP style that C# has. Dev also didn't want to learn F#. Nothing about C#, just a personal decision with the least amount of work to get to a beta.

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#118

Post by CharlieDigital »

kragen wrote: post #63
xpressvideoz wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> side note: sad that .NET and C# are not considered "major"... Even Microsoft does not use C# for their new projects. See the new TypeScript compiler that is being rewritten in Go. So I think it is safe to say C# is indeed a minor language.

This is an interesting point I hadn't thought of when I saw the announcement of the new TypeScript compiler. It might be overstating the case to say that C# is indeed a minor language, but it's thought-provoking that it wasn't Microsoft's automatic choice here, the way it is for some all-Microsoft in-house IT shops.

Microsoft themselves ship on a variety of platforms.

It's more about right tool for the right job.

Good example is Azure CLI; it's Python. Microsoft is also a big contributor in the Python scene[0]

I don't think it's surprising at all that they didn't use C# to write a compiler for TS.

They have internal champions for Rust[1]

I'd say Microsoft is possibly one of the most diverse shops when it comes to tech selection.

[0] https://devblogs.microsoft.com/python/supporting-the-python-...

[1] https://www.theregister.com/2022/09/20/rust_microsoft_c/

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#119

Post by FeistySkink »

LinuxBender wrote: post #89
pas wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://nginx.org/en/CHANGES acquisition finished in 2019 there are quite a lot of features, but it's hard to say what constitutes a new module. (well, there's "Feature: the ngx_stream_set_module." so maybe yes?)

One would probably have to go through git logs [1] so I guess I should do that after getting some food in the belly to answer my own question. It's a big log. Interesting side note, appears all commits from Maxim stopped in January 2024. Must be all F5 now. [1] - https://github.com/nginx/nginx

Here's some background:

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2024/02/nginx...

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#120

Post by jayd16 »

xpressvideoz wrote: post #35
CharlieDigital wrote: post #2

> At the same time, neither QUIC nor HTTP/3 are included in the standard libraries of any major languages including Node.js, Go, Rust, Python or Ruby. .NET actually looking like it has decent support for any teams that are interested[0] (side note: sad that .NET and C# are not considered "major"...). There is an open source C library that they've published that seems rather far along[1] Support for Windows, Linux[2],…

> side note: sad that .NET and C# are not considered "major"... Even Microsoft does not use C# for their new projects. See the new TypeScript compiler that is being rewritten in Go. So I think it is safe to say C# is indeed a minor language.

Go folks are going to be holding up this Typescript decision for years, aren't they...
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