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HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

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Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#81

Post by nyrikki »

crazygringo wrote: post #43
troupo wrote: post #21

A lot of the article is the same marketing spiel that Google has been using to promote QUIC (and then HTTP/3) At best those amazeballs advantages are applicable only at Google's scale, and have very little impact anywhere else. Worse, still, --- start quote --- We find that over fast Internet, the UDP+QUIC+HTTP/3 stack suffers a data rate reduction of up to 45.2% compared to the TCP+TLS+HTTP/2 counterpart. Moreover,…

Have those findings been independently confirmed? Has Google said anything? Is it dependent on certain e.g. server-side factors? Did Google "get this wrong" or was this intentional? E.g. is it by far a net positive to be faster on slow internet where the difference is perceivable, than to be slower on fast internet because it's still lightning-fast even when it's slower?

Google's needs are not most people's needs, "wrong" for them is different than "wrong" for general users.

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#82

Post by chronogram »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #61
pjc50 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure? https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/deploying/nati... "Since there's no standardized way to obtain native macOS SDK for use on Windows/Linux, or Windows SDK for use on Linux/macOS, or a Linux SDK for use on Windows/macOS, Native AOT does not support cross-OS compilation. Cross-OS compilation with Native AOT requires some form of emulation, like a virtual machine or Windows WSL." Now, you don't…

> Native AOT does not support cross-OS compilation > ...runtime-dependent and self-contained are fine This certainly reads like you moved the goal posts and recognized it.

The original question did ask about creating executables like Go, which means a single file you can run as is, so it was fair to mention AOT. For servers etc you usually don't want the AOT version, so then it doesn't matter which platform you develop on, but it's not always just like Go when you want to ship little applications.

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#83

Post by 0x457 »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #38
xpressvideoz wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> side note: sad that .NET and C# are not considered "major"... Even Microsoft does not use C# for their new projects. See the new TypeScript compiler that is being rewritten in Go. So I think it is safe to say C# is indeed a minor language.

> So I think it is safe to say C# is indeed a minor language That's not really the case; StackOverflow survey[0] shows C# (27.1%) right behind Java (30.3%) and well ahead of Go (13.5%), Rust (12.6%), Kotlin (9.4%), Ruby (5.2%), and Scala (2.6%). If we exclude HTML/CSS, Bash/Shell, and SQL, C# would be #5 in actual languages used over the past year by devs in this survey. You get the same result from scraping job post…

I never understood SO as a measurement tool for anything, but people that can't read docs.

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#84

Post by shermantanktop »

hypeatei wrote: post #24
CharlieDigital wrote: post #2

> At the same time, neither QUIC nor HTTP/3 are included in the standard libraries of any major languages including Node.js, Go, Rust, Python or Ruby. .NET actually looking like it has decent support for any teams that are interested[0] (side note: sad that .NET and C# are not considered "major"...). There is an open source C library that they've published that seems rather far along[1] Support for Windows, Linux[2],…

> side note: sad that .NET and C# are not considered "major I've said it before on here, but the tech community severely underrates .NET today. It's not Windows only (and hasn't been for ~8 years) plus C# is a very nice language. F# is also an option for people who like functional languages. I'd highly recommend giving it a try if you haven't already.

.NET suffers from the long lasting reputational taint of Microsoft. It was seen as the sworn enemy of open source and Linux, and for good reason.

Today’s MS is not what it was back then. But long memories are not a bad thing, really. If .NET suffers a bit from some unfair perception, perhaps that can remind MS and others what happens when you take an aggressively adversarial approach.

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#85

Post by bheadmaster »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #38
xpressvideoz wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> side note: sad that .NET and C# are not considered "major"... Even Microsoft does not use C# for their new projects. See the new TypeScript compiler that is being rewritten in Go. So I think it is safe to say C# is indeed a minor language.

> So I think it is safe to say C# is indeed a minor language That's not really the case; StackOverflow survey[0] shows C# (27.1%) right behind Java (30.3%) and well ahead of Go (13.5%), Rust (12.6%), Kotlin (9.4%), Ruby (5.2%), and Scala (2.6%). If we exclude HTML/CSS, Bash/Shell, and SQL, C# would be #5 in actual languages used over the past year by devs in this survey. You get the same result from scraping job post…

> StackOverflow survey[0] shows C# (27.1%) right behind Java (30.3%)

Can we rule out sample bias here? After all, Jon Skeet [0] is an important part of the Stack Overflow's C# community.

It might just be the case that C# and Java developers use Stack Overflow more than users of other languages.

[0] https://toggl.com/blog/save-princess-8-programming-languages

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#86

Post by Teckla »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #38
xpressvideoz wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> side note: sad that .NET and C# are not considered "major"... Even Microsoft does not use C# for their new projects. See the new TypeScript compiler that is being rewritten in Go. So I think it is safe to say C# is indeed a minor language.

> So I think it is safe to say C# is indeed a minor language That's not really the case; StackOverflow survey[0] shows C# (27.1%) right behind Java (30.3%) and well ahead of Go (13.5%), Rust (12.6%), Kotlin (9.4%), Ruby (5.2%), and Scala (2.6%). If we exclude HTML/CSS, Bash/Shell, and SQL, C# would be #5 in actual languages used over the past year by devs in this survey. You get the same result from scraping job post…

But because they had an existing body of code that was not class based, it would be more of a re-write (C#) versus a refactor (Go).

I don't understand this reasoning at all, and I'm hoping you can shed some light on it.

As far as I know, C# supports static methods. Thus, using OO in C# would not have been required, would it?

I feel like I'm missing something here.

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#87

Post by pas »

LinuxBender wrote: post #28
jsheard wrote: post #9

It's pretty glaring that nginx still doesn't have production-ready HTTP3 support despite being a semi-commercial product backed by a multi billion dollar corporation. F5 is asleep at the wheel.

Out of curiosity have F5 added any new modules since they acquired Nginx?

https://nginx.org/en/CHANGES

acquisition finished in 2019

there are quite a lot of features, but it's hard to say what constitutes a new module. (well, there's "Feature: the ngx_stream_set_module." so maybe yes?)

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#88

Post by crazygringo »

kragen wrote: post #60
crazygringo wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly are sites supposed to do to prevent being the targets of DDoS, spam, fraud, aggressive bots, and other abuse? And it's not "locked down", it's usually just a CAPTCHA as long as you're not coming from an abusive IP range like might happen with a VPN. Also there are a thousand other signals besides HTTP/3. It's not going to make a difference.

The normalization of CAPTCHAs for simply reading what ought to be public information strikes me as very alarming, as does characterizing essential privacy and anti-censorship measures like VPNs as "abusive". Something like 1% of HTTP hits pose some risk of spam or fraud, those where somebody is trying to post a message or a transaction or something. The other 99% are just requesting a static HTML document or JPEG (or…

Of course it's alarming. But what's the alternative?

> Something like 1% of HTTP hits pose some risk of spam or fraud

It doesn't matter if it's a tiny percentage of requests that are spam/fraud. The only thing that matters is the absolute amount, and that's massive.

> Static file serving is very difficult to DDoS

No it's not, and most pages aren't particularly static. They're hitting all sorts of databases and caches and stores.

> generally the DoS actor has to pay more than the victim website

No, generally the DDoS actor pays very little, because they're using bots infecting other people's devices. The bandwidth is free because it's stolen.

> be weighing "a thousand signals" to decide which version of the truth

Nobody said anything about "truth". You're either blocked or you're not. Page content isn't changing.

Yes, spam and fraud and abuse prevention does require weighing a thousand signals. It always has. It sucks, but the world is an adversarial place, and the internet wasn't designed with that in mind.

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#89

Post by LinuxBender »

pas wrote: post #87
LinuxBender wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity have F5 added any new modules since they acquired Nginx?

https://nginx.org/en/CHANGES acquisition finished in 2019 there are quite a lot of features, but it's hard to say what constitutes a new module. (well, there's "Feature: the ngx_stream_set_module." so maybe yes?)

One would probably have to go through git logs [1] so I guess I should do that after getting some food in the belly to answer my own question. It's a big log. Interesting side note, appears all commits from Maxim stopped in January 2024. Must be all F5 now.

[1] - https://github.com/nginx/nginx

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#90

Post by [deleted] »

parineum wrote: post #54
hypeatei wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> side note: sad that .NET and C# are not considered "major I've said it before on here, but the tech community severely underrates .NET today. It's not Windows only (and hasn't been for ~8 years) plus C# is a very nice language. F# is also an option for people who like functional languages. I'd highly recommend giving it a try if you haven't already.

They also severely underrate it's actual usage. For a non "major" language, there sure are a lot of jobs out there. .NET ain't hip.

[deleted]
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