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Leaked Apple meeting shows how dire the Siri situation is

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Re: Leaked Apple meeting shows how dire the Siri situation is

#41

The basic problem here for Apple is that LLMs will never actually be able to avoid prompt injection issues, and the entire "personal awareness" set of functionality they're trying to make uses LLMs. Unless somebody at Apple invents a new state of the art, it's not going to happen. With that said, I'm surprised they haven't yet at least replaced the 'dumb' Siri commands with something that's effectively an LLM transla…

I’m not sure I want / need an LLM for the handful of basic commands I want Siri to do in the car with no complication. Siri is good at some straightforward command patterns. And that’s how users have been trained. Adding an LLM feels like a solution looking for a problem

> how users have been trained

Palm's Graffiti handwriting system, for people who took the time to learn it, was strictly better and less frustrating than natural handwriting systems at the time. It lost to keyboard-based systems, which honestly are worse.

In my experience, "good enough" systems that need far less training will win *

I also only use Google Assistant to choose music and make calls in the car, but that's also because it kinda sucks at anything else and I haven't learned all the commands.

---

* except for hr systems, for some reason

Re: Leaked Apple meeting shows how dire the Siri situation is

#43

This problem of non-technical product folks over-promising features is going to get much worse in the age of LLMs. The models are incredibly adept at providing a proof-of-concept. But it's often a monumental endeavour to cross the gap between 70% and 90% accurcacy; 90%-95% even more. This long-tail pain isn't new, but the ability for non-technical folks to poke a model on a chat site and then assume their idea is rea…

> The models are incredibly adept at providing a proof-of-concept. But it's often a monumental endeavour to cross the gap That's not just with LLMs. This has been an Achille's heel of demos for decades. It's usually quite easy to make a demo of something sexy, but making it ship, is a very, very different thing. This is made exponentially worse, by managers thinking that the demo means "we're almost ready," and even…

I don’t disagree. I do think there will be a tendency to say, “We can do X using AI.” When X can happen, but it isn’t guaranteed to happen by the system.

Here, it doesn’t sound like the features promised were truly demo-able, and when they were they were “not working properly up to a third of the time”.

Having a random CRUD MVP that is 2/3rds done is different than having a SOTA LLM implementation only being 2/3rds reliable. It is a vastly different problem to get from there to the finish line.

But I think marketing types would be equally likely to make promises in both scenarios.

Re: Leaked Apple meeting shows how dire the Siri situation is

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All Apple needs to do is allow 3rd party apps to integrate with Siri, then use an LLM as a way to convert natural language into the set of allowed API calls. Basically similar what chatGPT does with function calling. And on osx, they should have already had a head start due to applescript integration everywhere in most apps. I have no idea why they're trying to reinvent the wheel with "Shortcuts" which is severely li…

They already have a compostable automation api with 3rd party integrations: Shortcuts! It’s not perfect, but surely you could natural language -> llm -> temporary shortcut script and that gets you a decent part of the way to a smarter Siri

I'm not as familiar with Shortcuts API but from a quick glance it seems less rich than apple events/apple script. With LLM + apple script you could achieve computer use agents on easy mode. Not just one-off "what's the weather" queries but complex multi-step interactions like "send the latest photo I took to John".

To start with, Automator on mac would be the perfect place for LLM integration. And Script Editor too. Being perhaps one of the few read-only languages, people would probably _prefer_ an LLM spit out applescript for them. And Apple probably has the highest quality data set internally. Combined with the fact that there there is a uniform way to specify the API surface (sdef), this is a task that is possible by most LLMs today. Just apply a little marketing spin to change the angle from "niche power user feature" to "apple uses computer-use agent AI to allow average joe to automate their entire workflow" and it's a smash hit.

From there it's not much of a stretch to slap some speech recognition (just take Whisper, it already beats whatever iOS uses), add some guardrails, and have it be orders of magnitude better than what Siri currently is capable of. And this is all possible with today's LLMs, and thanks to deepseek without paying a cent to anyone else. When interactive computer-use does get mostly solved, that can be added in as a fallback for anything where applescript doesn't cut it (e.g. web navigation, electron apps, etc.). But there's a clear logical progression that allows you to easily evolve the user experience as the technology matures without having to throw out your stack the entire time.

But to me I think their fate was sealed was Shortcuts was shipped on mac when Automator already existed. And it's clear apple events has been a languishing feature, with integration in native apps already breaking.

Re: Leaked Apple meeting shows how dire the Siri situation is

#45
I am curious how many people are like me and never use the voice assistants on phones. I have amazon alexa devices and only use it for timers, weather, and controlling lights. I never use my phone's voice assistant. (I'm not even sure how to turn it on)

Re: Leaked Apple meeting shows how dire the Siri situation is

#46

The basic problem here for Apple is that LLMs will never actually be able to avoid prompt injection issues, and the entire "personal awareness" set of functionality they're trying to make uses LLMs. Unless somebody at Apple invents a new state of the art, it's not going to happen. With that said, I'm surprised they haven't yet at least replaced the 'dumb' Siri commands with something that's effectively an LLM transla…

I’m not sure I want / need an LLM for the handful of basic commands I want Siri to do in the car with no complication. Siri is good at some straightforward command patterns. And that’s how users have been trained. Adding an LLM feels like a solution looking for a problem

LLMs are probably better at "understanding" what the user wants, e.g. "Hey Siri, I have to take my kids to the doctor tomorrow" would reply "Do you want me to make a calendar event?".

Asking ChatGPT, it even has suggestions like "Do you want me to check traffic, do you want me to make a checklist for what to bring?".

If I continue with "but I can't make it", one of the suggestions ChatGPT imagine possible is: "Would you like me to send a message to your partner, babysitter, or anyone else involved?"

Re: Leaked Apple meeting shows how dire the Siri situation is

#48

I am curious how many people are like me and never use the voice assistants on phones. I have amazon alexa devices and only use it for timers, weather, and controlling lights. I never use my phone's voice assistant. (I'm not even sure how to turn it on)

Enterprise MDM and Apple Configurator can disable voice assistant entirely, which may be needed in some work contexts.

Re: Leaked Apple meeting shows how dire the Siri situation is

#49
My speculation is that the small on-device models are simply not useful enough for practical purposes.

The on-device transformer models are described as having 3B parameters[0]. Their own figures from 6 months ago show that humans prefer other models' output 25-40% of the time, which aligns with Gurman's reporting.

I don't know how well Apple's A-series chips can handle transformers, but if you play with their on-device diffusion models (Image Playground, Genmoji), you can watch your battery drop before your eyes. And the output of these models is also embarrassingly behind the state of the art.

If Apple can make great foundation models for Private Cloud Compute, that's great. But then what's the point of buying a new iPhone for on-device inference capabilities?

Secondly, I speculate that allowing a server-side model to query the personal context database is going to be hard to do performantly, requiring several round trips and uploading fragments of the data to the cloud for processing.

0: https://machinelearning.apple.com/research/introducing-apple...

Re: Leaked Apple meeting shows how dire the Siri situation is

#50
post #12

I know Apple has been known to wait until a technology was very mature before putting it into a product, sometimes years after competitors had already done so. But Apple Intelligence seems like the complete opposite… like they had to have something now .

The same year the tech industry got taken by storm by LLMs, Apple announced a brutally expensive, niche VR/AR headset with no particular use case. That product was essentially DOA.

I think this is the first time in decades where Apple took a step from their back foot. The Vision Pro announcement during the initial hype cycle of ChatGPT made it look like they were just totally out of step with the industry. It was a dud product that cost billions in R&D, the market for it was unclear, and the industry zeitgeist (and talent) was going in a totally different direction.

So their response was to rush something out the door to avoid looking like they were caught flat-footed. Now it's abundantly obvious they were unprepared for AI, they've failed to ship features they promised, and they have to commit resources to support an additional platform that no one cares about because they did ship that one. Worst of all worlds.

Had they slept on the Vision Pro, I'm pretty convinced they could have credibly kept their powder dry on LLMs, like they've done with many industry hype cycles in the last. People would've assumed they were doing the Apple thing of not being first to ship something, but the first to ship compelling.

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