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AI Is Making Developers Dumb

eli.cx

121–130 of 234 posts

Re: AI Is Making Developers Dumb

#121
post #3

LLMs also take away the motivation from students to properly concentrate and deeply understand a technical problem (including but not limited to coding problems); instead, they copy, paste and move on without understanding. The electronic calculator analogy might be appropriate: it's a tool appropriate once you have learned how to do the calculations by hand. In an experiment (six months long, twice repeated, so a on…

I wish I had an LLM as a student because I couldn’t afford a tutor and googling for information was tedious. It’s the college’s responsbility now to teach students how to harness the power of LLMs effectively. They can’t keep their heads in the sand forever.

I had this realization a couple weeks ago that AI and LLMs are the 2025 equivalent of what Wikipedia was in 2002. Everyone is worried about how all the kids are going to just use the “easy button” and get nonsense that’s in-checked and probably wrong and a whole generation of kids are going to grow up not knowing how to research, and trusting unverified sources.

And then eventually overall we learned what the limits of Wikipedia are. We know that it’s generally a pretty good resource for high level information and it’s more accurate for some things than for others. It’s still definitely a problem that Wikipedia can confidently publish unverified information (IIRC wasn’t the Scottish translation famously hilariously wrong and mostly written by an editor with no experience with the language?)

And yet, I think if these days people were publishing think pieces about how Wikipedia is ruining the ability of students to learn, or advocating that people shouldn’t ever use Wikipedia to learn something, we’d largely consider them crackpots, or at the very least out of touch.

I think AI tools are going to follow the same trajectory. Eventually we’ll gain enough cultural knowledge of their strengths and weaknesses to apply them properly and in the end they’ll be another valuable asset in our ever growing lists of tools.

Re: AI Is Making Developers Dumb

#122
My guess is that AI will make programming even more misserable for those who entered the field for the wrong reasons. Now is the time to double down on learning the basics, the low level, the under-the-hood stuff.

Re: AI Is Making Developers Dumb

#123
post #63

Plato, in the Phaedrus, 370BC: "They will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to remembrance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks."

And our memory has declined. He was right

Has it? Or do we instead have vast overfilled palaces of the sum of human knowledge, often stored in pointers and our limited working memory readily available for things recently accessed?

I'd argue that our ability to recall individual moments has gone down, but the sum of what we functionally know has gone up massively.

Re: AI Is Making Developers Dumb

#124
post #3

LLMs also take away the motivation from students to properly concentrate and deeply understand a technical problem (including but not limited to coding problems); instead, they copy, paste and move on without understanding. The electronic calculator analogy might be appropriate: it's a tool appropriate once you have learned how to do the calculations by hand. In an experiment (six months long, twice repeated, so a on…

What do you think is the big difference between these tools and calculators?

[deleted]

Re: AI Is Making Developers Dumb

#125
Books made orators dumb. I'm not sure this argument has ever had any credence, not now and not when Socrates came up with his version for his time.

Any technology that renders a mental skill obsolete will undergo this treatment. We should be smart enough to recognize the rhetoric it is rather than pretend it's a valid argument for Luddism.

Re: AI Is Making Developers Dumb

#126
post #79

People said the same thing about IntelliSense a long time ago.

There's a difference in quality, though. IntelliSense was never meant to be more than autocomplete or suggestions (function names, variables names, etc.), i.e. the typing out and memorizing API calls and function signatures part. LLMs in the context of programming are tools that aim to replace the thinking part. Big difference.

I don't need to remember all functions and their signatures for APIs I rarely use - it's fine if a tool like IntelliSense (or an ol' LSP really) acts like a handy cheat sheet for these. Having a machine auto-implement entire programs or significant parts of them, is on another level entirely.

Re: AI Is Making Developers Dumb

#127

We've seen this happen over and over again, when a new leaky layer of abstraction is developed that makes it easier to develop working code without understanding the lower layer. It's almost always a leaky abstraction, because sometimes you do need to know how the lower layer really works. Every time this happens, developers who have invested a lot of time and emotional energy in understanding the lower level claim t…

And every time the commentariat dismisses it with the trope that it’s the same as the other times.

It’s not the same as the other times. The naysayers might be the same elitists as the last time. But that’s irrelevant because the moment is different.

It’s not even an abstraction. An abstraction of what? It’s English/Farsi/etc. text input which gets translated into something that no one can vouch for. What does that abstract?

You say that they can learn about the lower layers. But what’s the skill transfer from the prompt engineering to the programming?

People who program in memory-managed languages are programming. There’s no paradigm shift when they start doing manual memory management. It’s more things to manage. That’s it.

People who write spreadsheet logic are programming.

But what are prompt engineers doing? ... I guess they are hoping for the best. Optimism is what they have in common with programming.

Re: AI Is Making Developers Dumb

#128
post #117

We've seen this happen over and over again, when a new leaky layer of abstraction is developed that makes it easier to develop working code without understanding the lower layer. It's almost always a leaky abstraction, because sometimes you do need to know how the lower layer really works. Every time this happens, developers who have invested a lot of time and emotional energy in understanding the lower level claim t…

> But you don't have to understand lower layers to provide value to your customers, and developers who now find themselves overinvested in low-level knowledge don't want to believe that. This is the weakest point which breaks your whole argument. I see it happening ALL the time: newer web developers enter the field from an angle of high abstraction, whenever these abstractions don't work well, then they are completel…

Yeah … but

That has some amount to do with the level abstraction but almost everything to do with inexperience. The lower level you get, the harder the impact of inexperience.

New web developers are still sorting themselves out and they are at a stage where they’ll suck no matter what the level of abstraction.

Re: AI Is Making Developers Dumb

#129

We've seen this happen over and over again, when a new leaky layer of abstraction is developed that makes it easier to develop working code without understanding the lower layer. It's almost always a leaky abstraction, because sometimes you do need to know how the lower layer really works. Every time this happens, developers who have invested a lot of time and emotional energy in understanding the lower level claim t…

When a higher level of abstraction allows programmers to focus on the detail relevant to them they stop needing to know the low level stuff. Some programmers tend not to be a fan of these kinds of changes as we well know.

But do LLMs provide a higher level of abstraction? Is this really one of those transition points in computing history?

If they do, it's a different kind to compilers, third-party APIs or any other form of higher level abstraction we've seen so far. It allows programmers to focus on a different level of detail to some extent but they still need to be able to assemble the "right enough" pieces into a meaningful whole.

Personally, I don't see this as a higher level of abstraction. I can't offload the cognitive load of understanding, just the work of constructing and typing out the solution. I can't fully trust the output and I can't really assemble the input without some knowledge of what I'm putting together.

LLMs might speed up development and lower the bar for developing complex applications but I don't think they raise the problem-solving task to one focused solely on the problem domain. That would be the point where you no longer need to know about the lower layers.

Re: AI Is Making Developers Dumb

#130

We've seen this happen over and over again, when a new leaky layer of abstraction is developed that makes it easier to develop working code without understanding the lower layer. It's almost always a leaky abstraction, because sometimes you do need to know how the lower layer really works. Every time this happens, developers who have invested a lot of time and emotional energy in understanding the lower level claim t…

Last year I learned a new language and framework for the first time in a while. Until I became used to the new way of thinking, the discomfort I felt at each hurdle was both mental and physical! I imagine this is what many senior engineers feel when they first begin using an AI programming assistant, or an even more hands-off AI tool.

Oddly enough, using an AI assistant, despite it guessing incorrectly as often as it did, helped me learn and write code faster!

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