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AI Is Making Developers Dumb

eli.cx

91–100 of 234 posts

Re: AI Is Making Developers Dumb

#91
> Over time, I started to forget basic foundational elements of the languages I worked with. I started to forget parts of the syntax, how basic statements are used

It's a good thing tbh. Language syntax is ultimately entirely arbitrary and is the most pointless thing to have to keep in mind. Why bother focusing on that when you can use the mental effort on the actual logic instead?

This has been a problem for me for years before LLMs, constantly switching languages and forgetting what exact specifics I need to use because everyone thinks their super special way of writing the same exact thing is best and standards are avoided like the plague. Why do we need two hundred ways of writing a fuckin for loop?

Re: AI Is Making Developers Dumb

#92

We've seen this happen over and over again, when a new leaky layer of abstraction is developed that makes it easier to develop working code without understanding the lower layer. It's almost always a leaky abstraction, because sometimes you do need to know how the lower layer really works. Every time this happens, developers who have invested a lot of time and emotional energy in understanding the lower level claim t…

Leaky abstractions is a really appropriate term for LLM-assisted coding.

The original "law of leaky abstractions" talked about how the challenge with abstractions is that when they break you now have to develop a mental model of what they were hiding from you in order to fix the problem.

(Absolutely classic Joel Spolsky essay from 22 years ago which still feels relevant today: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/11/11/the-law-of-leaky-a... )

Having LLMs write code for you has a similar effect: the moment you run into problems, you're going to have to make sure you deeply understand exactly what they have done.

Re: AI Is Making Developers Dumb

#95
post #63

Plato, in the Phaedrus, 370BC: "They will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to remembrance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks."

And our memory has declined. He was right

That's not really the question though. The question is, would we be better off if we didn't have "[the] means of external marks"?

I'm sure somebody out there would argue that the answer is yes, but personally I have my doubts.

Re: AI Is Making Developers Dumb

#96
post #3

LLMs also take away the motivation from students to properly concentrate and deeply understand a technical problem (including but not limited to coding problems); instead, they copy, paste and move on without understanding. The electronic calculator analogy might be appropriate: it's a tool appropriate once you have learned how to do the calculations by hand. In an experiment (six months long, twice repeated, so a on…

What do you think is the big difference between these tools and calculators?

Fundamentally nothing, but everybody already knows that you shouldn't teach young kids to rely on calculators during the basic "four-function" stage of their mathematics education.

Calculators for the most part don't solve novel problems. They automate repetitive basic operations which are well-defined and have very few special cases. Your calculator isn't going to do your algebra for you, it's going to give you more time to focus on the algebraic principles instead of material you should have retained from elementary school. Algebra and calculus classes are primarily concerned with symbolic manipulation, once the problem is solved symbolically coming to a numerical answer is time-consuming and uninteresting.

Of course, if you have access to the calculator throughout elementary school then you're never going to learn the basics and that's why schoolchildren don't get to use calculators until the tail-end of middle school. At least that's how it worked in the early 2000s when i was a kid; from what i understand kids today get to use their phones and even laptops in class so maybe i'm wrong here.

Previously I stated that calculators are allowed in later stages of education because they only automate the more basic tasks; Matlab can arguably be considered a calculator which does automate complicated tasks and even when i was growing up the higher-end TI-89 series was available which actually could solve algebra and even simple forms of calculus problems symbolically; we weren't allowed access to these when i was in high school because we wouldn't learn the material if there was a computer to do it for us.

So anyways, my point (which is halfway an agreement with the OP and halfway an agreement with you) is that AI and calculators are fundamentally the same. It needs to be a tool to enhance productivity, not a crutch to compensate for your own inadequacies[1]. This is already well-understood in the case of calculators, and it needs to be well-understood in the case of AI.

[1] actually now that i think of it, there is an interesting possibility of AI being able to give mentally-impaired people an opportunity to do jobs they might never be capable of unassisted, but anybody who doesn't have a significant intellectual disability needs to be wary of over-dependence on machines.

Re: AI Is Making Developers Dumb

#97
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this scenario, if AI does a not so good job, there will still be good developers left to code.

Sure, the problem then becomes finding the ideal ratio between good "proper" programmers and AI code monkeys. Also, it'll be interesting to see how LLM prompt writing develops as a skill unto itself.

> it'll be interesting to see how LLM prompt writing develops as a skill unto itself.

MIT already offers an online prompt engineering course as of a year ago so I'm sure it already has.

Re: AI Is Making Developers Dumb

#98
This entire line of reasoning is worker propaganda. Like the boss is some buffoon and the employees constantly have to skirt his nonsensical requirements to make create a reasonable product.

It's a cartoon mentality. Real products have more requirements than any human can fathom, correctness is just one of the uncountable tradeoffs you can make. Understanding, or some kind of scientific value is another.

If anything but a single minded focus on your pet requirement is dumb, then call me dumb idc. Why YOU got into software development is not why anyone else did.

Re: AI Is Making Developers Dumb

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is something that I struggle with for AI programming. I actually like writing the code myself. Like how someone might enjoy knitting or model building or painting or some other "tedious" activity. Using AI to generate my code just takes all the fun out of it for me.

I don’t enjoy writing unit tests but fortunately this is one task LLMs seem to be very good at and isn’t high stakes, they can exhaustively create test cases for all kinds of conditions, and can torture test your code without mercy. This is the only true improvement LLMs have made to my enjoyment.

except they are not good at it. the unit tests you'll have written will be filled with (slow) mocks with tautological assertions, create no reusable test fixtures, etc.

Re: AI Is Making Developers Dumb

#100

We've seen this happen over and over again, when a new leaky layer of abstraction is developed that makes it easier to develop working code without understanding the lower layer. It's almost always a leaky abstraction, because sometimes you do need to know how the lower layer really works. Every time this happens, developers who have invested a lot of time and emotional energy in understanding the lower level claim t…

Not all of those abstractions are equally leaky though. Automatic memory management for example is leaky only for a very narrow set of problems, in many situations the abstraction works extremely well. It remains to be seen whether AI can be made to leak so rarely (which does not meant that it's not useful even in its current leaky state).
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