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Evidence that Neanderthal and Homo sapiens engaged in cultural exchange

phys.org

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Re: Evidence that Neanderthal and Homo sapiens engaged in cultural exchange

#61

Post by bjackman »

This article really fails to explain anything. Headline just makes a statement then the text waffles on without actually making any arguments to support that statement.

So basically from the paper I think they are saying there is morphological variability in the area, but they can see technological consistency (centripetal lavallois, burnt ochre). But I still don't understand why this particular assemblage is evidence for that.

Not that I don't believe them, I'm just grumbling that they haven't explained it properly (at least, not well enough for my Sunday morning brain).

Re: Evidence that Neanderthal and Homo sapiens engaged in cultural exchange

#62

Post by b800h »

cutemonster wrote: post #43
csomar wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think our growth to 8 billion was a consequence of technology advancement rather than our acceptance of each other. While I don't disagree with the parent that humans do exterminate each other, they seem to be also keen to assimilate the other into their "own" line.

Also, we are more peaceful species now, than 40 000 years ago.

Perhaps all that Neanderthal DNA we assimilated changed us. Cold-adapted mammals tend to be more cooperative within their species.

Re: Evidence that Neanderthal and Homo sapiens engaged in cultural exchange

#63

Post by yubblegum »

HexPhantom wrote: post #50

It's incredible to think that instead of isolated evolutionary tracks, early human groups were exchanging ideas, tools, and even burial customs

Iceman - 1984: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087452/?ref_=fn_all_ttl_3

A surprisingly touching film about a frozen Neanderthal brought back to life. Have a feeling you'll like it.

Re: Evidence that Neanderthal and Homo sapiens engaged in cultural exchange

#64

Post by jl6 »

numbsafari wrote: post #58
jl6 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s highly unlikely that a small nomadic hunter-gatherer band would have had the food surplus and hierarchical organization needed to control and keep slaves. It’s as likely that ancient humans outcompeted Neanderthals for resources as killed them off directly.

This is not true, as evidenced by the slave taking exhibited by nomadic peoples in North America. It was a pretty routine practice, well documented in history. Losers in battles would often be assimilated by the winner as slaves.

I think you are talking about a far more modern period, in a much more complex, socially stratified society. The Neanderthal period was 50k-100k years ago.

Re: Evidence that Neanderthal and Homo sapiens engaged in cultural exchange

#65

Post by noisy_boy »

GlobalFrog wrote: post #46
csomar wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think our growth to 8 billion was a consequence of technology advancement rather than our acceptance of each other. While I don't disagree with the parent that humans do exterminate each other, they seem to be also keen to assimilate the other into their "own" line.

Maybe, but our tech advancement could only happen because of our acceptance of others and of cooperation. And I have not seen any evidence that neandertals and sapiens considered themselves that different, this is just an assumed thing from our limited knowledge.

> Maybe, but our tech advancement could only happen because of our acceptance of others and of cooperation.

Or maybe the technical advantage was driven by survival and desire to occupy/expand which eventually resulted in overall development (because you can only hide your advantage for so long) which lifted most of the boats resulting in conditions that make acceptance of others and cooperation easier. I would like to know large-scale examples of acceptance and co-operation when the world was being discovered, conquered, divided and shaped through occupation and wars.

Re: Evidence that Neanderthal and Homo sapiens engaged in cultural exchange

#66

Post by saalweachter »

yubblegum wrote: post #63
HexPhantom wrote: post #50

It's incredible to think that instead of isolated evolutionary tracks, early human groups were exchanging ideas, tools, and even burial customs

Iceman - 1984: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087452/?ref_=fn_all_ttl_3 A surprisingly touching film about a frozen Neanderthal brought back to life. Have a feeling you'll like it.

I preferred the 1992 remake.

Re: Evidence that Neanderthal and Homo sapiens engaged in cultural exchange

#67

Post by saalweachter »

b800h wrote: post #60
setopt wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve also seen estimates that Neanderthals required 2x-5x more calories per day than us, which translates into 2x-5x less population density. That’s one way to get overwhelmed.

I think "than us" here is quite mistaken reasoning, particularly for those of us with lots of Neanderthal DNA.

Also, "than us doing what"?

Thru-hikers are often expecting to burn like 6000 calories a day.

Arctic explorers burned up to something like 10,000.

Would Neanderthals burn 30-50,000 calories in the same situation, or is that just "what Neanderthals did all day", as opposed to me, a guy sitting at a desk, burning 2000-2500 when I get my steps in?

Re: Evidence that Neanderthal and Homo sapiens engaged in cultural exchange

#68

Post by zqna »

mmooss wrote: post #40
cutemonster wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are indicators, for example, the neanderthals and all other human like great apes have mysteriously disappeared except for us. (Or gotten assimilated, I mean, we have a tiny bit neanderthal DNA) Check out killer ape theory. Also look at how violent humans are to their own species.

So no evidence, just more of the cutting edge, widely followed, paper-thin theory of inevitable evil. > There are indicators, for example, the neanderthals and all other human like great apes have mysteriously disappeared except for us. (Or gotten assimilated, I mean, we have a tiny bit neanderthal DNA) That's not an indication at all. It's an outcome. > Also look at how violent humans are to their own species. Human…

We have means to wipe out those 8 billions in a matter of seconds. And we continuously select the biggest psychopaths to control those means. The evidence shows that we are fucked up species and it's only matter of time when we are going to blow the whole thing up.

Re: Evidence that Neanderthal and Homo sapiens engaged in cultural exchange

#69

Post by saalweachter »

metalman wrote: post #12

so we are all part, Ugg, or is it part Ugg-et, or is it both?, ie: y and x chromasones have nieanderthal bits?, if its both, then that is a strong indication that things were pretty casual, ,hanging out partying, looks like Ugg and Sue are hitting it off, some tasty mastadon on the fire, heard you and the other nieandethals got a saber tooth cat last week

Y chromosomes and mitochondria don't have crossover, so you need unbroken patrilineal and matrilineal descent from a particular ancestor to inherit it.

So if you are Ugg, son of Ugg, son of Ugg, son of Ugg, you have ur-Ugg's Neanderthal Y chromosome, but if you are Ugg, son of Ugg, son of Uggette, daughter of Ugg, you have neither ur-Ugg's Y nor X chromosome (Uggette inherits Ugg's X, which gets crossed over with Maggie's [Ugg's Cro-Magnon missus] X's and passed on to Ugg II, but Ugg II doesn't pass on his X to you, he passed on Magnus's [Uggette's Cro-Magnon mister] Y).

Re: Evidence that Neanderthal and Homo sapiens engaged in cultural exchange

#70

Post by yubblegum »

saalweachter wrote: post #66
yubblegum wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iceman - 1984: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087452/?ref_=fn_all_ttl_3 A surprisingly touching film about a frozen Neanderthal brought back to life. Have a feeling you'll like it.

I preferred the 1992 remake.

Didn't know. Will check it out. [edit: nothing on imdb for that year. Are you sure?]
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