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B2B Is Unsexy, and I Know It

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Re: B2B Is Unsexy, and I Know It

#61

Post by sudonim »

BryanB55 wrote: post #50
mattmanser wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree with this, this isn't an echo chamber, and no-one's buying into that ethos. Let's be frank, b2b is boring as shit. It's not even vaguely interesting. The only challenge to setting up the ultimate competitor to Sage/Quickbooks is that it's so mind numbingly dull. B2B programming is an utter pile of mind-numbingly boring crap. It's not sexy because it's incredibly simple with a colossal amount of…

I think there is a big difference between B2B and enterprise software. Enterprise software, to me, seems very boring. B2B software like, say, the stuff 37signals makes is interesting. I enjoy those business models and reading about b2b web apps and picking apart their UI designs and how they go about solving problems. It seems like it would be a ton of fun to build something like mailchimp.com or basecamp.com, etc..

Agreed. My goal used to be to create something that my friends would use. I hated "enterprise" software. Thought it was bloated and ugly. Then I saw 37s. I grew tired of B2C software. Now I'm working on software I want all my peers to use. My friends wouldn't get value from it.

But, I can tell you it is the most fun I've ever had building software. We get to choose our technology. And we're using technology I consider sexy - like Ember.js and some great database technologies that make the hard stuff our app is doing ridiculously fast.

I get excited about things like making our queue tremendously fast by switching from resque to sidekiq.

There's nothing I'd rather be doing than building B2B software.

Re: B2B Is Unsexy, and I Know It

#62

Post by rickmb »

There seems to be an odd notion that B2B must be about accounting and such. Most B2B stuff I've been involved with the past few years has all been "social".

Because, like soylent green, companies mostly consist of people...

Re: B2B Is Unsexy, and I Know It

#63

Post by 0x0 »

zcvosdfdgj wrote: post #47
jacobn wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he understands it rather well - it's "complex simple software". You can think of any software as consisting of a set of problems of varying degree of "difficulty". Sort them in ascending order and plot them. This graph will give a very tell-tale signature as to what you're facing. B2B / enterprise / call it what you will software has an infinite number of individually easy but collectively mind-numbingly pain…

No, he definitely doesn't understand what quickbooks is. He says 10million loc is an indication it has gone "horribly wrong". That tells me he doesn't have the vaguest idea what the feature set of quickbooks is. I've been programming for 15 years, and have personally used sage for 7 years. 10m loc is definitely within reason for the number of features the app has. If he doesn't understand WHAT the software IS. Then h…

I parsed his "something's gone horribly wrong" as to mean "wrong with the accounting laws in this country", not "wrong with the software development".

Re: B2B Is Unsexy, and I Know It

#64

Post by ef4 »

mattmanser wrote: post #30
mindcrime wrote: post #3

Good stuff, and I agree with almost 100% of that. The only thing I take exception to is the (seemingly) implicit suggestion that "sexy" is defined by what college kids like: And that’s true. B2B is unsexy in that I don’t build things that my college friends want to use. Nah... if you're doing sexy technology, it's sexy even if not a single college kid has ever heard of it. I'd encourage everyone to NOT buy into the H…

I completely disagree with this, this isn't an echo chamber, and no-one's buying into that ethos. Let's be frank, b2b is boring as shit. It's not even vaguely interesting. The only challenge to setting up the ultimate competitor to Sage/Quickbooks is that it's so mind numbingly dull. B2B programming is an utter pile of mind-numbingly boring crap. It's not sexy because it's incredibly simple with a colossal amount of…

This makes no sense. The actual act of programming is completely agnostic to what the bytes you're processing mean.

They could be the most boring data in the world, but if you're trying to juggle enough of them at once, at high reliability, you're going to end up with very deep technical challenges.

I'm sure somebody probably said "why would you want to write code for an online book store? That's so technically shallow and simple." And then we got Amazon.

Great hackers redefine the problem in front of them, and that act of redefinition is the interesting part. No program is interesting if you're simply translating a flawless spec into code. Any program is interesting when it's entirely up to you what the spec should truly be.

Re: B2B Is Unsexy, and I Know It

#65

Post by ef4 »

maayank wrote: post #21
mindcrime wrote: post #3

Good stuff, and I agree with almost 100% of that. The only thing I take exception to is the (seemingly) implicit suggestion that "sexy" is defined by what college kids like: And that’s true. B2B is unsexy in that I don’t build things that my college friends want to use. Nah... if you're doing sexy technology, it's sexy even if not a single college kid has ever heard of it. I'd encourage everyone to NOT buy into the H…

The problem is how to get exposure to B2B processes as a software developer. Unless you have previous work experience as a sales guy/marketing/inventory procurement/etc. or a MBA or already developing B2B tools, how can you learn about the needs and opportunities?

Just talk to people. Ask everyone you meet what they hate about their job, what stupid program they're forced to use, what boring repetitive task they do.

People love to talk about themselves, and they love to gripe about what's broken and annoying, so it's much easier than you might think. Finding problems to solve is actually extremely easier. The harder art is doing the follow up to understand if there's a good business model for someone who solves the problem.

Re: B2B Is Unsexy, and I Know It

#66

Post by krickle »

mattmanser wrote: post #30
mindcrime wrote: post #3

Good stuff, and I agree with almost 100% of that. The only thing I take exception to is the (seemingly) implicit suggestion that "sexy" is defined by what college kids like: And that’s true. B2B is unsexy in that I don’t build things that my college friends want to use. Nah... if you're doing sexy technology, it's sexy even if not a single college kid has ever heard of it. I'd encourage everyone to NOT buy into the H…

I completely disagree with this, this isn't an echo chamber, and no-one's buying into that ethos. Let's be frank, b2b is boring as shit. It's not even vaguely interesting. The only challenge to setting up the ultimate competitor to Sage/Quickbooks is that it's so mind numbingly dull. B2B programming is an utter pile of mind-numbingly boring crap. It's not sexy because it's incredibly simple with a colossal amount of…

There is such a massive load of cognitive dissonance about B2B being sexy in the responses you got. Is it really such a blow to one's ego to admit that it's boring but profitable? Yes, there are technical challenges, no, the majority of it is not interesting.

Re: B2B Is Unsexy, and I Know It

#67

Post by 7952 »

mattmanser wrote: post #30
mindcrime wrote: post #3

Good stuff, and I agree with almost 100% of that. The only thing I take exception to is the (seemingly) implicit suggestion that "sexy" is defined by what college kids like: And that’s true. B2B is unsexy in that I don’t build things that my college friends want to use. Nah... if you're doing sexy technology, it's sexy even if not a single college kid has ever heard of it. I'd encourage everyone to NOT buy into the H…

I completely disagree with this, this isn't an echo chamber, and no-one's buying into that ethos. Let's be frank, b2b is boring as shit. It's not even vaguely interesting. The only challenge to setting up the ultimate competitor to Sage/Quickbooks is that it's so mind numbingly dull. B2B programming is an utter pile of mind-numbingly boring crap. It's not sexy because it's incredibly simple with a colossal amount of…

Can you really think of nothing more interesting than accounting software. You lack imagination.

Re: B2B Is Unsexy, and I Know It

#68

Post by ansgri »

jacobn wrote: post #43
zcvosdfdgj wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only challenge to setting up the ultimate competitor to Sage/Quickbooks is that it's so mind numbingly dull. Yes, the dullness of the topic is why no one has bothered to enter the market and compete with the $3 billion Intuit, or the $1.5 billion Sage. It's just too boring for them to bother with that kind of money. You're fing kidding right? Do you think that maybe, just maybe, the 17,000 pages in GAAP have some…

I think he understands it rather well - it's "complex simple software". You can think of any software as consisting of a set of problems of varying degree of "difficulty". Sort them in ascending order and plot them. This graph will give a very tell-tale signature as to what you're facing. B2B / enterprise / call it what you will software has an infinite number of individually easy but collectively mind-numbingly pain…

Most people are thinking too narrowly of B2B, and while it may be true that business logic and accounting are dominating in number of installations / volume of sales / whatever, some very unsexy businesses (road toll collection, what could be worse!) do want most sexy science and technology. Significant fraction of computer vision studies is dedicated to vehicle recognition and classification.

Re: B2B Is Unsexy, and I Know It

#69

Post by lmm »

ef4 wrote: post #64
mattmanser wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree with this, this isn't an echo chamber, and no-one's buying into that ethos. Let's be frank, b2b is boring as shit. It's not even vaguely interesting. The only challenge to setting up the ultimate competitor to Sage/Quickbooks is that it's so mind numbingly dull. B2B programming is an utter pile of mind-numbingly boring crap. It's not sexy because it's incredibly simple with a colossal amount of…

This makes no sense. The actual act of programming is completely agnostic to what the bytes you're processing mean. They could be the most boring data in the world, but if you're trying to juggle enough of them at once, at high reliability, you're going to end up with very deep technical challenges. I'm sure somebody probably said "why would you want to write code for an online book store? That's so technically shall…

There are good and bad programming tasks in all fields. But the kind of "complex simple software" the GP talks about, where the actual task is mind-bogglingly simple but there are hundreds of edge cases in the requirements, is a lot less fun to write than something with more cohesive requirements (i.e. where you don't have to match what an existing business does)

Re: B2B Is Unsexy, and I Know It

#70

Post by jacques_chester »

0x0 wrote: post #63
zcvosdfdgj wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, he definitely doesn't understand what quickbooks is. He says 10million loc is an indication it has gone "horribly wrong". That tells me he doesn't have the vaguest idea what the feature set of quickbooks is. I've been programming for 15 years, and have personally used sage for 7 years. 10m loc is definitely within reason for the number of features the app has. If he doesn't understand WHAT the software IS. Then h…

I parsed his "something's gone horribly wrong" as to mean "wrong with the accounting laws in this country", not "wrong with the software development".

Law is complex because the world is complex. We're talking about "essential" complexity; it exists in the domain and it can't be wished away.
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