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Ask HN: Any insider takes on Yann LeCun's push against current architectures?

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Re: Ask HN: Any insider takes on Yann LeCun's push against current architectures?

#261

Post by qoez »

bravura wrote: post #132

Okay I think I qualify. I'll bite. LeCun's argument is this: 1) You can't learn an accurate world model just from text. 2) Multimodal learning (vision, language, etc) and interaction with the environment is crucial for true learning. He and people like Hinton and Bengio have been saying for a while that there are tasks that mice can understand that an AI can't. And that even have mouse-level intelligence will be a br…

"LeCun has been on about it for a while and it's less controversial these days."

Funny how that sentence could have been used 15 years ago too when he was right about persevering through neural network scepticism.

Re: Ask HN: Any insider takes on Yann LeCun's push against current architectures?

#262

Post by kadushka »

yahoozoo wrote: post #256
kadushka wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most modern LLMs are multimodal.

Does it really matter? At the end of the day, all the modalities and their architectures boil down to matrices of numbers and statistical probability. There’s no agency, no soul.

At the end of the day, all modalities boil down to patterns of electrical activity in your brain.

Re: Ask HN: Any insider takes on Yann LeCun's push against current architectures?

#263

Post by nonameiguess »

brulard wrote: post #258
bravura wrote: post #132

Okay I think I qualify. I'll bite. LeCun's argument is this: 1) You can't learn an accurate world model just from text. 2) Multimodal learning (vision, language, etc) and interaction with the environment is crucial for true learning. He and people like Hinton and Bengio have been saying for a while that there are tasks that mice can understand that an AI can't. And that even have mouse-level intelligence will be a br…

I don't know about telling better the size from a picture. I can imagine seeing 2 pictures of the moon. One is extreme telephoto showing moon next to a building and it looks real big. Then there would be another image where moon is a tiny speckle in the sky. How big is the moon? I would rather understand a text: "its radius is x km".

Reading "its radius is x km" would mean nothing to you if you'd never experienced spatial extent directly, whether that be visually or just by moving through space and existing in it. You'd need to do exactly what is being said in the paper, read about thousands of other roughly spherical objects and their radii. At some point, you'd get a decent sense of relative sizes.

On the other hand, if you ever simply see a meter stick, any statement that something measures a particular multiple or fraction of that you can already understand, without ever needing to learn the size of anything else.

Re: Ask HN: Any insider takes on Yann LeCun's push against current architectures?

#264

Post by mcculley »

bravura wrote: post #132

Okay I think I qualify. I'll bite. LeCun's argument is this: 1) You can't learn an accurate world model just from text. 2) Multimodal learning (vision, language, etc) and interaction with the environment is crucial for true learning. He and people like Hinton and Bengio have been saying for a while that there are tasks that mice can understand that an AI can't. And that even have mouse-level intelligence will be a br…

Are people born both blind and deaf incapable of true learning?

Re: Ask HN: Any insider takes on Yann LeCun's push against current architectures?

#265

Post by cruffle_duffle »

Lerc wrote: post #50
seanhunter wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem with LLMs is that the output is inherently stochastic - i.e there isn't a "I don't have enough information" option. This is due to the fact that LLMs are basically just giant look up maps with interpolation. I don't think this explanation is correct. The input to the decoder at the end of all the attention heads etc (as I understand it) is a probability distribution over tokens. So the model as a whole…

I feel like we're stacking naive misinterpretations of how LLMs function on top of one another here. Grasping gradient descent and autoregressive generation can give you a false sense of confidence. It is like knowing how transistors make up logic gates and believing you know more than CPU design than you actually do. Rather than inferring from how you imagine the architecture working, you can look at examples and co…

> It would be quite easy to detect (and exploit) behaviour that decided to use a vowel word just because it somewhat arbitrarily used an 'an'.

That is a very interesting observation!

Doesn’t that internal state get blown away and recreated for every “next token”? Isn’t the output always the previous context plus the new token, which gets fed back and out pops the new token? There is no transfer of internal state to the new iteration beyond what is “encoded” in its input tokens?

Re: Ask HN: Any insider takes on Yann LeCun's push against current architectures?

#266

Post by kedarkhand »

refulgentis wrote: post #199
chmod775 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What in the world does it mean that a 3 year old is smarter than an LLM? Because LLMs have terrible comprehension of the real world. Here's an example: > You: If you put a toddler next to a wig on the floor, which reaches higher? > ChatGPT: The wig would typically reach higher than the toddler, especially if the wig is a standard size or has long hair. Toddlers are generally around 2 to 3 feet tall, while wigs can…

> Because LLMs have terrible comprehension of the real world. That doesn't seem to be the case. > You: If you put a toddler next to a wig on the floor, which reaches higher? > ChatGPT: ... I answered it wrong too. I had to read it, and your reaction to the implied obvious reasoning 3 times, to figure out the implied obvious reasoning, and understand your intent was the toddler was standing and the wig was laying in a…

> I had to read it, and your reaction to the implied obvious reasoning 3 times, to figure out the implied obvious reasoning, and understand your intent was the toddler was standing and the wig was laying in a heap.

It seems quite obvious even on a cursory glance though!

> toddler was standing and the wig was laying in a heap

I mean how would toddler be laying in a heap?

> Would a toddler even understand the question?

Maybe not, I am a teen/early adult myself, so not many children yet :) but if you instead lay those in front of a toddler and ask which is higher, I guess they would answer that, another argument for multi-modality.

PS: Sorry if what I am saying is not clear, english is my third language

Re: Ask HN: Any insider takes on Yann LeCun's push against current architectures?

#267

Post by grayhatter »

mcculley wrote: post #264
bravura wrote: post #132

Okay I think I qualify. I'll bite. LeCun's argument is this: 1) You can't learn an accurate world model just from text. 2) Multimodal learning (vision, language, etc) and interaction with the environment is crucial for true learning. He and people like Hinton and Bengio have been saying for a while that there are tasks that mice can understand that an AI can't. And that even have mouse-level intelligence will be a br…

Are people born both blind and deaf incapable of true learning?

There's a whole fork lore/meme around how hard it is, in America culture...

But given blidness and deafness is an impediment to acquiring language, more than anything else, I'd say that's the exact opposite of the conclusions from the comment you're replying to.

But yes, depending on where you set the bar for "true learning" being blind and deaf would prevent it.

I assume you're asking if vision and sound are required for learning, the answer I assume is no. Those were just chosen because we've already invented cameras and microphones. Haptics are less common, and thus less talked about.

Re: Ask HN: Any insider takes on Yann LeCun's push against current architectures?

#268

Post by [deleted] »

codenlearn wrote: post #138
bravura wrote: post #132

Okay I think I qualify. I'll bite. LeCun's argument is this: 1) You can't learn an accurate world model just from text. 2) Multimodal learning (vision, language, etc) and interaction with the environment is crucial for true learning. He and people like Hinton and Bengio have been saying for a while that there are tasks that mice can understand that an AI can't. And that even have mouse-level intelligence will be a br…

Doesn't Language itself encode multimodal experiences? Let's take this case write when we write text, we have the skill and opportunity to encode the visual, tactile, and other sensory experiences into words. and the fact is llm's trained on massive text corpora are indirectly learning from human multimodal experiences translated into language. This might be less direct than firsthand sensory experience, but potentia…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Any insider takes on Yann LeCun's push against current architectures?

#269

Post by kedarkhand »

ninetyninenine wrote: post #214
bravura wrote: post #132

Okay I think I qualify. I'll bite. LeCun's argument is this: 1) You can't learn an accurate world model just from text. 2) Multimodal learning (vision, language, etc) and interaction with the environment is crucial for true learning. He and people like Hinton and Bengio have been saying for a while that there are tasks that mice can understand that an AI can't. And that even have mouse-level intelligence will be a br…

>1) You can't learn an accurate world model just from text. >2) Multimodal learning (vision, language, etc) and interaction with the environment is crucial for true learning. LLMs can be trained with multimodal data. Language is only tokens and pixel and sound data can be encoded into tokens. All data can be serialized. You can train this thing on data we can't even comprehend. Here's the big question. It's clear we…

> non Euclidean space and only using sonar for visualization

Pretty good idea for a video game!

Re: Ask HN: Any insider takes on Yann LeCun's push against current architectures?

#270

Post by rcpt »

ThinkBeat wrote: post #146
codenlearn wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't Language itself encode multimodal experiences? Let's take this case write when we write text, we have the skill and opportunity to encode the visual, tactile, and other sensory experiences into words. and the fact is llm's trained on massive text corpora are indirectly learning from human multimodal experiences translated into language. This might be less direct than firsthand sensory experience, but potentia…

No. > The sun feels hot on your skin. No matter how many times you read that, you cannot understand what the experience is like. > You can read a book about Yoga and read about the Tittibhasana pose But by just reading you will not understand what it feels like. And unless you are in great shape and with greate balance you will fail for a while before you get it right. (which is only human). I have read what shooting…

I can't see as much color as a mantis shrimp or sense electric fields like a shark but I still think I'm closer to AGI than they are
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