Battery is silly for buses, IMO. Invest in streetcars (electrified fixed-route buses) and be done with it. Streetcar lines represent continued investment, and are therefore more attractive to developers, unlike bus routes that can be changed on a whim. And they've been around for longer. Cut the red tape on building them and on zoning if you want to see serious results.
Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?
161–170 of 503 posts
Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
This depends a lot on local climate and topography. Seattle has kind of been a bust with them because the hills really reduce the amount of charge, and on top of that the existing bus depots are already full, so switching to electric only would mean having to find and locate space for more bus depots, which is quite difficult.
Hills should never reduce the range, because the energy lost during climbing up is recovered when going downhill. This is one of the great advantages of electric vehicles with batteries, when properly designed. Electric buses with batteries are even more suitable for cities with hills than for cities without hills, because they provide greater energy savings over buses with ICEs. While I have never used buses with ba…
Not related to vehicle battery energy consumption, transit agencies have been reporting their BEBs struggling up hills due to drivetrain components not being good fits for their terrain. Surprising finding, with the OEM sending replacement parts as a result.
Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
No bus route should be more than 15 minutes between full and empty. That is you start at some station, go 15 minutes, then turn around and go back. There are many systems that attempt to do more, but there is no point: people have places to be: on the bus is not on that list. That 15 minutes means an average of 7 minutes, now they walk to some other express bus that gets them nonstop (at faster speeds) to someplace,…
Am I misunderstanding you about the 15 minutes interval? Every workday I take a one-seat King County Metro bus ride that lasts about 1 hr. The bus starts at a layover facility and ends at a different layover facility. I don’t see how this 15 minute interval maps to my actual commute?
I don't think you're misunderstanding. I think the person you're responding to is misunderstanding that we were referring to trip end points (layover locations).
Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?
#164Earlier quoted context omitted.
In Tompkins County we were early adopters of the electric bus, at least for the American market. We bought them from a startup which had trouble with the structural aspects and eventually they fell apart https://www.ithaca.com/news/ithaca/tcat-pulls-all-electric-b... Established bus manufacturers make good electric buses now but we don't have the money to buy replacements.
Five months before the company filed for bankruptcy, Proterra's CEO was appointed to the President’s Export Council (PEC), "the principal national advisory committee on international trade."
Bankruptcy, like death, often happens lowly, and then all at once.
Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?
#165Huh. I kind of thought that batteries had comprehensively won in this market, tbh. I still can't quite get used to the electric buses. A 20 tonne double-decker bus should sound like it might explode at any moment; it is unnatural for them to move around more or less silently.
In Tompkins County we were early adopters of the electric bus, at least for the American market. We bought them from a startup which had trouble with the structural aspects and eventually they fell apart https://www.ithaca.com/news/ithaca/tcat-pulls-all-electric-b... Established bus manufacturers make good electric buses now but we don't have the money to buy replacements.
Thanks for your insight. The amount of damage that Proterra did to the overall BEB adoption rates should not be underestimated. I work with many agencies and so many of them are running from BEBs toward FCEBs in large part because of their, or sister agency, experience with Proterra buses.
Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?
#166Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sorry, but, what the hell? This is Hacker News at its finest: completely talking out of its ass. This isn’t how bus routes work, and this isn’t how people ride busses, on most if not all of the…many PT systems I’ve used in multiple states / countries.
There is a reason people complain about buses and prefer to drive in so many cases. Operators try to compromise on cheap and end up with service for those who after 5 DWIs can't get their friends to drive them anymore.
Forcing more people to change busses more often for their routes just to fit some 15 minute max route ideal is going to make more people hate the busses.
Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?
#167Transit agencies don't have the technical expertise to distinguish truth from lies in cleantech marketing. They aren't the only ones, see the over-inflated valuations of both Nikola and Tesla as two (very different) stories of companies successfully lying to investors and the general public about the magical capabilities of their novel transportation platforms.
They kind of do, though. Most transit agencies hire consultants to plan out these transitions, and the consultants have expertise in the different technologies and can present the pros and cons. However, the decisions stemming from this information can often be dictated by the transit agency's governing board, which cares less about this fat report that they just paid for and cares more for the hydrogen interests whispering in their ears.
Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?
#168that site never loads for me - 403 forbidden
I would guess like myself you are denied due to geolocation. I'm in Australia using an Australian ISP. I could load a proxy but due to so many anonyphobic sites or scripts via their API that really try hard to detect and deny proxies, I am not that engaged with a news item to go to the trouble. Also looking at my earlier comment in this tread also pointing out the 403, apparently some people don't like me mentioning that -- I guess I can wonder how long before onion and nearly impossible to load links will be OK at HN.
Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?
#169Because people are allergic to hybrids and I don't know why "Electric is short range, fuel is expensive, guess I have to pick one" The ideal drivetrain was invented over 20 years ago by Toyota and apparently nobody but me and Honda noticed it!
I’ve been riding electric buses for almost 10 years, and no hybrid comes close to them. The experience as a passenger or as a citizen living next to a bus stop is far way superior: smooth, silent, non-smelly, no hot motor heating the back of the bus in summer… I hate riding any diesel bus after having got used to electric ones.
Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
Within one technology, that'd be true. But not if you have the option to choose another technology that produces a lot less waste heat.
Yeah, I just find the framing very weird. It's talked about as if it's somehow worse than diesel. But then isn't the issue that hydrogen fuel is less economical than diesel in general, regardless of whether the fuel is used for locomotion or for passenger heating? In the context of passenger heating specifically, waste heat is either free for both diesel and hydrogen, or equally non-free for both. Also the article ap…
Hydrogen fuel (gray) is often about $8-10/kg, which is about an 80% increase in costs per mile over diesel. Green hydrogen is like $14/kg.
Additionally, agencies are experiencing vapor losses of fuel, which results in an overall increase in fuel costs. These losses can occur in different circumstances, but often occur after fueling when the gaseous fuel left in the hose (that cannot be returned to the liquid tank) evaporates. One agency reported double the cost of fuel due to these losses.
Anyway, yeah I think the argument in the article was that this waste heat isn't "free" because you're paying such a premium for it via the fuel costs.