Also this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybus
Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?
71–80 of 503 posts
Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The ideal drivetrain was invented over 20 years ago by Toyota and apparently nobody but me and Honda noticed it! The problem is hybrid drivetrains are complex . You don't save anything on the complexity of a combustion engine and exhaust train (over 1000 individual parts that have to be machined at extremely low tolerances), but add a more complex transmission (it needs to be able to work with two distinct inputs)…
As a simple driver of cars, I've never understood why no one has mass produced an EV with a built-in generator. That would avoid the complexity of the hybrid drive train, allow easy plugin and short range electric-only travel, and could even be offered as an optional attachment. So what am I missing? Is the efficiency gained by the generator offset by losses through the EV system?
It just turns out not to be worth it. The generator is a lot of weight to add, and a whole bunch of new parts to maintain.
It's a lot easier to add enough batteries to match the range of an ICE car. Range anxiety is largely manufactured at this point. The cars know how far they can go and where the chargers are. A gasoline powered generator would be a huge extra cost with no real upside other than averting a non-problem.
Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The ideal drivetrain was invented over 20 years ago by Toyota and apparently nobody but me and Honda noticed it! The problem is hybrid drivetrains are complex . You don't save anything on the complexity of a combustion engine and exhaust train (over 1000 individual parts that have to be machined at extremely low tolerances), but add a more complex transmission (it needs to be able to work with two distinct inputs)…
As a simple driver of cars, I've never understood why no one has mass produced an EV with a built-in generator. That would avoid the complexity of the hybrid drive train, allow easy plugin and short range electric-only travel, and could even be offered as an optional attachment. So what am I missing? Is the efficiency gained by the generator offset by losses through the EV system?
Edison Motors is working on a system like this. They're looking to sell kits for retrofitting it onto pickup trucks, & a larger scale semi truck cab version for use with logging trucks. It looks great in their videos, although I'm not sure if they're selling to the public yet - probably a ways to go before it's really mass produced.
Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?
#74Look into propane (a.k.a. LPG or Autogas). If the goal is anything-but-diesel-or-gasoline/petrol, the use of propane (a fossil fuel that is a byproduct of oil and gas refining) is a well-understood, well-implemented practice. I am not advocating for propane as a primary solution, but rather as part of the journey towards truly clean vehicle emissions and the ramp-down of heavily polluting fossil fuel refining. Propan…
A local airport shuttle service converted some of their vans to propane. They told me the benefit is that they go about 3-4x longer between oil changes. (I suspect they aren't brave enough to go 500,000 miles.)
Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?
#75Huh. I kind of thought that batteries had comprehensively won in this market, tbh. I still can't quite get used to the electric buses. A 20 tonne double-decker bus should sound like it might explode at any moment; it is unnatural for them to move around more or less silently.
In Tompkins County we were early adopters of the electric bus, at least for the American market. We bought them from a startup which had trouble with the structural aspects and eventually they fell apart
https://www.ithaca.com/news/ithaca/tcat-pulls-all-electric-b...
Established bus manufacturers make good electric buses now but we don't have the money to buy replacements.
Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?
#76Look into propane (a.k.a. LPG or Autogas). If the goal is anything-but-diesel-or-gasoline/petrol, the use of propane (a fossil fuel that is a byproduct of oil and gas refining) is a well-understood, well-implemented practice. I am not advocating for propane as a primary solution, but rather as part of the journey towards truly clean vehicle emissions and the ramp-down of heavily polluting fossil fuel refining. Propan…
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Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?
#77Because people are allergic to hybrids and I don't know why "Electric is short range, fuel is expensive, guess I have to pick one" The ideal drivetrain was invented over 20 years ago by Toyota and apparently nobody but me and Honda noticed it!
I've ridden both hybrid and electric buses and I prefer the latter, as those huge engines still produce a lot of vibration.
I drive a Toyota hybrid and while it's a step up from a purely combustion propelled car, I still have to do oil changes and its fumes still smell bad when it's running rich for whatever reason.
Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?
#78There are some hydrogen busses working in the UK.
>34-bus expansion, jointly funded by Brighton & Hove Buses and Surrey County Council, bringing their total hydrogen fleet to 54 vehicles – the largest hydrogen bus operation in the UK. https://drivinghydrogen.com/2025/02/04/hydrogen-buses-34-new...
I'm not sure how cost effective it is compared to battery though.
Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
Batteries have won this so hard (if you ignore CNG busses, which have existed forever and are "almost as good as hydrogen could be") - because even when they hadn't won it, you just needed more busses. Is it nice if the bus can do a driver's entire shift without a recharge? Sure! But if it can't, you just design the route so that the driver can switch busses and buy another bus. That means the technology problem is n…
The stop-start nature of city busses makes them a real low hanging fruit for battery electrification, benefiting from instant torque to start and regen to stop and, as you say, fixed known routes within larger fleets. The only nation that seems to have capitalised on this basic fact is China which bootstrapped its EV industry on busses, pulling ahead from 2010 and hitting 90% of global market share for EV busses in 2…
For the same reason the electric mail trucks are a good idea. You can probably expect UPS and FedEx to start replacing their fleets over time as the existing vehicles age out, now that all electric vans are starting to become available.
Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
Some hybrid drivetrains have fewer moving parts than a traditional ICE and are more reliable.
That undersells it. The data on hybrid drivetrains is pretty clear--it's definitely more reliable. Even mechanics will tell you that; certainly mine did, and he's not a masochist. Start+stop is hell on mechanical drivetrains. It's a no-brainer when purchasing a new car except that there's still a premium for hybrid, so the RoI might not be there given baseline reliability and depending on your preferences. Though the…
My ROI is in how I can slam in reverse when I'm rolling forward or floor it whenever without concern for the drivetrain.