Live data from Hacker News

Athena landed in a dark crater where the temperature was -280° F / -173° C

arstechnica.com

51–60 of 277 posts

Re: Athena landed in a dark crater where the temperature was -280° F / -173° C

#51
post #9

If you take the time to study the documentation from the 1950s & 1960s, the engineering culture of that era appears to be markedly different from the engineering culture prevalent today. And I think it's deeply rooted in the symbiotic relationship between computing, Baumol's cost disease and our obsession with precision, results-oriented, MBA-style-min-maxing, "good enough for government work" engineering. Robert Tru…

>It chose the terminal landing sites with the help of LIDAR and its cameras, but it relied on RADAR and a suite of sensors to have robust navigation.

I think this is the smoking gun. RADAR is usually successful, while LIDAR has a poor record.

Re: Athena landed in a dark crater where the temperature was -280° F / -173° C

#52

Dumb question, but why can't it have a few simple telescopic sticks which extend to flip it over if it lands upside down. Seems it's the second time they fail in this mode.

How about a parachute to keep it the right way up?

Not enough of an atmosphere.

Re: Athena landed in a dark crater where the temperature was -280° F / -173° C

#53
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're criticizing the prioritization of cost, not the concept of trying to solve for constraints. Engineering is about constrained optimization to meet customer needs.[1] Learning this is a core part of the curriculum at my accredited engineering school. > Engineering design is a process of making informed decisions to creatively devise products, systems, components, or processes to meet specified goals based on eng…

This comment isn't directed at you jjmarr, I appreciate your take, but I think it's important to point out that, > constrained optimization to meet customer needs is MBA-capture in action. For most of its existence as a formal field, engineering wasn't about making geegaws that "meet customer needs." It was about building stuff that matters. Houses that didn't collapse. Roads and machines that made it possible to tra…

I was watching this documentary Happy People, about people who live in the Siberian Taiga (by Werner Herzog, would highly recommend). A man is talking about making a new set of skis, and it shows the incredibly long and careful process of selecting the perfect trees, chopping them down in the right way, treating the wood and so on. He mentions how mass manufactured skis are light and cheap and will work fine for a while, but when one breaks and you're in the Siberian wilderness you can't just go to the store for a replacement. That really stuck with me.

1960s US is hardly Siberia and I don't think any NASA engineers had their heads on the chopping block if their designs failed. But engineering philosophy was still rooted in survival; the primary goal was to make something that wouldn't kill you because it fails.

You hear stories about artisans in the old days refusing work because they don't believe what they're being asked to make is safe or reliable enough for the person asking for it. Maybe it's romanticized and idealized, maybe it's just them covering their ass so they don't get blamed. But that philosophy of personal responsibility not just for making things according to the constraints, but for the outcome too, is something that served society well for a long time before slowly disappearing over the past century or so.

It hasn't left without reason. As the things being made became less key to survival and more key to thrival, as the world became more interconnected and safe, it didn't make as much sense. Just think of how many crazy, inventive concepts we use every day wouldn't have been made if they could only be made to work reliably! Our entire modern existence is based off things that don't work reliably. It's a blessing and a curse.

But when we're exploring the final frontier we need frontier thinking and frontier technology; things that, from the ground up, are built to work first with all other constraints secondary. Unfortunately spaceflight endeavors today must invariably build off the 'good enough, when it breaks just make a new one' foundation that permeates modern design at every level. Even if you want to make something nowadays with the sole purpose of working, as long as you're using any technological advancements made in the past 50 years chances are you're using something that wasn't made with that goal in mind.

Re: Athena landed in a dark crater where the temperature was -280° F / -173° C

#54
post #22
post #17

Kinda explain why Neil Armstrong burned up all their fuel except for a few seconds scoping out the landing site in paranoia. Instead of building all these expensive to launch big landers, why not get some pizza-box sized probes into earth orbit AND THEN do like a slo-mo golf shot arcing to where the moon will be for a super slow/soft landing? Some will fail but if you launch 100 and get 20-30 working, there you go. A…

Space applications of all sorts are screaming out for mass production approaches. With so much design work and verification the actual manufacturing cost tends to be trivial by comparison, the work readily adapted to concurrent manufacturing processes.

When I signed on to a Mars mission in 1999, the scientists told me that’s JPL’s approach: instead of extremely expensive, robust, redundant craft, they would begin to make leaner stuff and worry less when it failed...

Around the same time, Mission Control was replacing their bespoke hardware with COTS and trying to minimize the “glue” HW/SW for space systems.

You'll also see that expertise on a particular instrument package is leveraged over and over across multiple missions.

NASA still has amazing educational outreach and makes incredible software, even for mere mortals.

Re: Athena landed in a dark crater where the temperature was -280° F / -173° C

#55
Related. Others?

Athena spacecraft declared dead after toppling over on moon - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43292471 - March 2025 (340 comments)

The Moon Lander Athena's Fate on the Lunar Surface Is Uncertain - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43283136 - March 2025 (1 comment)

Re: Athena landed in a dark crater where the temperature was -280° F / -173° C

#56
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you find unclear. Navigation was fine - "Athena knew where it was relative to the surface of the Moon" - but without a working altimeter it was kinda fucked for actually touching down. Hard landing, skid, tip.

The top-heavy design didn't help things either. I'll be shocked if they don't go three-for-three on landing sideways given IM3 has the same tall design.

>> The top-heavy design didn't help things either

Just wait for SpaceX to start trying to land starships on the moon. Also vertically. Also doomed to tip over whenever the surface is slightly out of spec.

https://www.spacex.com/humanspaceflight/moon/

Re: Athena landed in a dark crater where the temperature was -280° F / -173° C

#57
post #36
post #114

[stub for offtopicness]

I know I'm a snob... but I can't read science news using the imperial system.

You would think either they could parameterise all units or a plausible browser extension could convert elephants to swimmingpools and King's thumbs to badly measured fractions of a diameter.

Re: Athena landed in a dark crater where the temperature was -280° F / -173° C

#59
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you find unclear. Navigation was fine - "Athena knew where it was relative to the surface of the Moon" - but without a working altimeter it was kinda fucked for actually touching down. Hard landing, skid, tip.

The top-heavy design didn't help things either. I'll be shocked if they don't go three-for-three on landing sideways given IM3 has the same tall design.

Why do people keep thinking this thing is top heavy just because its taller than wide?

The heavy bits are at the bottom.

Post reply on HN