Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#171

Post by goatlover » Fri, Mar 14, 2025, 5:15 PM UTC

mjburgess wrote: post #38

andrewmutz wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your perceptions of stoicism are so detatched from mine, I have to ask, what does stoicism mean to you? The wikipedia entry describes it like this: "The Stoics believed that the practice of virtue is enough to achieve eudaimonia: a well-lived life. The Stoics identified the path to achieving it with a life spent practicing the four cardinal virtues in everyday life — prudence, fortitude, temperance, and justice — as…

> prudence, fortitude, temperance, and justice I adopt rather the opposite virutes. Imprudence, risk, throwing-your-self-at-a-wall-until-you-cant, intemperance (conflict, debate, disagreement, competition) and pragmatism (address what is rather than what should be). Behind each of the stoic virutues is a psychological position to dettach, dissociate and live in a more abstracted conceptual space. This can be theraput…

So you don't like Buddhism either. Question for you though, if the opposite virtues are so much healthier, why did practices like Stoicism and Buddhism develop to help people cope with the difficult realities of life?

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#172

Post by lukan » Fri, Mar 14, 2025, 5:16 PM UTC

mjburgess wrote: post #38

andrewmutz wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your perceptions of stoicism are so detatched from mine, I have to ask, what does stoicism mean to you? The wikipedia entry describes it like this: "The Stoics believed that the practice of virtue is enough to achieve eudaimonia: a well-lived life. The Stoics identified the path to achieving it with a life spent practicing the four cardinal virtues in everyday life — prudence, fortitude, temperance, and justice — as…

> prudence, fortitude, temperance, and justice I adopt rather the opposite virutes. Imprudence, risk, throwing-your-self-at-a-wall-until-you-cant, intemperance (conflict, debate, disagreement, competition) and pragmatism (address what is rather than what should be). Behind each of the stoic virutues is a psychological position to dettach, dissociate and live in a more abstracted conceptual space. This can be theraput…

"If the plane is falling from the sky, i envy the people screaming -- they have the right levels of attachemnt to their own lives."

Instead of screaming, I would rather stoicly prepare and brace myself for the impact of the rough landing. I might die anyway, or I might survive because I managed to put the seat belt on and hard things away from my torso and head. But screaming will not increase my chances, rather the opposite.

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#173

Post by jabits » Fri, Mar 14, 2025, 5:18 PM UTC

mjburgess wrote: post #73

codexb wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your last example demonstrates the value of stoicism. In many cases, our untrained emotional response to life prevents us from achieving more or enjoying life. Instead of screaming, you could spend the time enjoying your loved ones for as long as possible. You could try to find a way to stop the plane from falling or work on bracing yourself to survive the impact. Stoicism is a realizing that many of our inst…

I suspect that screaming at a person who has done you wrong, in the vast majority of cases, has both the intended effect and a desirable one. If you are in an elite position of leadership, and otherwise have more Machiavellian options, then you can always try to calculate revenge instead -- or forgive endlessly and be exploited. I'd say in the majority of cases, for most adult people with some life experience, shouti…

Well now it sounds like you are disagreeing for it's own sake. There may be a name for what you describe, but it's not what is commonly understood as Stoicism.

And in my many years, I have never found shouting at another person to be a healthy thing.

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#174

Post by andoando » Fri, Mar 14, 2025, 5:20 PM UTC

somenameforme wrote: post #168

andoando wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a staunch Stoic, and a hollow disassociative mess is exactly what I became. Think of the end goal of the Stoic and what it takes to achieve it. At every misfortune, you rationalize and deny your natural emotions. If you do it well, you're an all understanding guru of life, sharing oneness with everything, and becoming nothing in particular. We have to accept that we too are a part of nature and flawed imperfect…

Perhaps as a peer comment is alluding to, this issue might simply be viewing things through an all-or-nothing lens. In some ways I think this is similar to Thomas Jefferson and Christianity. He was drawn to the soundness of the values of Christianity as a system of moral and ethical behavior, but found the supernatural aspects of it unbelievable, and words of third parties as less relevant. So he simply cut them out…

That is totally fair, and I'd say what me and the other commenter here are doing is precisely that, arguing that Stoicism by itself, is not something to live by.

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#175

Post by goatlover » Fri, Mar 14, 2025, 5:20 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #57

sentimentscan wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, can you provide more sources, about the dictators and stoicism, also Marcus Aurelius was he a tyrant, mass murderer, and courtier?

Pretty much all Roman emperors would be considered tyrants and mass murderers by the standards of modern western liberal democracies. Marcus Aurelius was a product of his time and hardly a hero to emulate. But despite their flaws we can learn some universal lessons from their surviving writings that still apply to modern life — including at least some elements of stoicism.

Modern western liberal democracies aren't without faults either. They've been involved in a few conflicts themselves, like Iraq and Israel/Palestine (whatever your view the situation is an ongoing mess not really helped by foreign influence). Or propping up illiberal rulers. There's the values liberal democracies espouse, and then there are the geopolitical realities of how they act.

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#176

Post by zx10rse » Fri, Mar 14, 2025, 5:21 PM UTC

mjburgess wrote: post #4

It's no accident that a roman emperor (tyrant, mass murderer, and courtier) is the premier famous stoic. Nor is it an accident that the next most famous case is that of British empire public schooling, british "stiff upper lip" stocisim. (EDIT: Marcus Aurelius) himself was no stoic philosopher, he merely wrote diaries to himself in his late days -- diaries he wanted burned, not published. And these were rehresals of…

You completely misunderstood everything about Stoicism. It has nothing to do with God his plan or elites.

Stoicism in its essence is about living with accordance with nature by seeking virtue.

It is funny that you call Marcus Aurelius a tyrant while he is considered one of the five great emperors. During the Pax Romana golden age the empire lived in relative peace prosperity and progress. After the death of Aurelius the empire descended into chaos.

His reflections are profound not bitter or resentful. Majority of them are relatable today some 2000 years after...

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#177

Post by FredPret » Fri, Mar 14, 2025, 5:23 PM UTC

mjburgess wrote: post #4

It's no accident that a roman emperor (tyrant, mass murderer, and courtier) is the premier famous stoic. Nor is it an accident that the next most famous case is that of British empire public schooling, british "stiff upper lip" stocisim. (EDIT: Marcus Aurelius) himself was no stoic philosopher, he merely wrote diaries to himself in his late days -- diaries he wanted burned, not published. And these were rehresals of…

> a roman emperor (tyrant, mass murderer, and courtier)

It's interesting to read up on the lives of famous ancients like Julius Caesar and Alexander. I know it was a different time, but the regular and casual war crimes and mass murders sticks in one's craw.

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#178

Post by rexpop » Fri, Mar 14, 2025, 5:26 PM UTC

FredPret wrote: post #177

mjburgess wrote: post #4

It's no accident that a roman emperor (tyrant, mass murderer, and courtier) is the premier famous stoic. Nor is it an accident that the next most famous case is that of British empire public schooling, british "stiff upper lip" stocisim. (EDIT: Marcus Aurelius) himself was no stoic philosopher, he merely wrote diaries to himself in his late days -- diaries he wanted burned, not published. And these were rehresals of…

> a roman emperor (tyrant, mass murderer, and courtier) It's interesting to read up on the lives of famous ancients like Julius Caesar and Alexander. I know it was a different time, but the regular and casual war crimes and mass murders sticks in one's craw.

> the regular and casual war crimes and mass murders

It's phenomenal to read about these revered historical figures! They turn out be privileged thugs. We should be extremely reluctant to extol their virtues.

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#179

Post by stared » Fri, Mar 14, 2025, 5:29 PM UTC

If Stoicism appeals to the rich, I wonder if the same can be said about Western Buddhism à la Alan Watts and other "everything is love" spiritual philosophies?

From my anecdotal observations, these philosophies particularly appeal to successful people - especially those recovering from burnout or seeking balance in their careers. Think Burning Man's tech hippies. And let's be honest: not every working-class person can afford to take time off for a spiritual retreat. This dynamic was brilliantly portrayed in the Black Mirror episode "Smithereens".

To be clear - I am just as guilty as charged.

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#180

Post by s1artibartfast » Fri, Mar 14, 2025, 5:30 PM UTC

andoando wrote: post #159

freedomben wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are genuine questions, but please don't feel obligated to answer if you aren't comfortable. I'm fascinated to hear your story though. Are you generally a pretty gung-ho person? Do you feel drawn to strive toward perfection? Were you or are you previously religious with Christianity, Islam, or other world religion? Do you view stoicism as an all-or-nothing thing? I.e. do you think a person applying stoicism in a…

Growing up I was a pretty reserved, depressed kid. Culturally Christian background but I was a pretty staunch agnostic. I am not a perfectionist when it comes to work, but I did always strive to be as rational as I could in how I approached life. It was very much naturally my coping mechanism. If faced with being wronged, "They're just a biological machine, how could I be mad at a tree that grew the wrong way?", pers…

Do you have any idea why stoicism (and rationalism) gets conflated with lack of passion and goals?

In my experience, both are tools to get what one wants, but it seems like a lot of people miss out on the instrumentality. Goal orientation is necessary to determine when emotional repression is appropriate.