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Samsung Q990D unresponsive after 1020 firmware update

us.community.samsung.com

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Re: Samsung Q990D unresponsive after 1020 firmware update

#81

Post by csomar »

OtherShrezzing wrote: post #43
mytailorisrich wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed a golden factory firmware version that will be booted automatically if all else fails and that provides minimum connectivity is crucial.

I wonder if that opens a threat vector from a security point of view? If an attacker knows that the golden firmware has some critical vulnerability which they can exploit easily, they can activate it at will by bricking the device and waiting for it to restart.

The golden firmware should reset to the old/first firmware of the device and nothing else. Keep it as simple as possible and restore the customer device back to an operational state.

Re: Samsung Q990D unresponsive after 1020 firmware update

#82

Post by ziddoap »

MiddleEndian wrote: post #49
ethbr1 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No device should be updated without the *owner* explicit intention to do so. That point has practical issues, because most consumer electronic customers are technically dumb. Consequently, you end up with a long-tail of deployed device firmware versions, which makes support a nightmare (fix this external integration that broke... across 20 different versions). I'd phrase it more in terms of: - Every device must inc…

>That point has practical issues, because most consumer electronic customers are technically dumb. It's a speaker that worked fine until Samsung unilaterally broke it. I don't think the customers are the dumb ones here.

The original comment and the reply are talking generally, not specifically about this one case.

Re: Samsung Q990D unresponsive after 1020 firmware update

#83

Post by ddtaylor »

shantara wrote: post #51
devmor wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

#2 has been a godsend in the custom/HEDT PC market. Many expensive motherboards now come with a "dual BIOS" system that gives you an older known working image to boot from, in case flashing a new version broke something that can't be easily undone.

Another amazing feature is the ability to flash a BIOS from an unbootable system. You insert a flash drive with the firmware file into a USB port, press a hardware button and the BIOS gets updated, even without a CPU socketed.

This is a requirement for any motherboard I purchase now. I have enjoyed the ability to use AMD CPUs that are slightly outside of the generational support or enable features I am not promised.

Without the ability to flash from USB without a CPU doing this requires keeping spare CPUs that will work just to flash.

Re: Samsung Q990D unresponsive after 1020 firmware update

#84

Post by mrweasel »

napolux wrote: post #59
eYrKEC2 wrote: post #39

My Samsung TV got more and more unusable with every update. Over the years, saved apps, like Youtube, started to disappear every time it woke up. Then it would default to their Samsung TV app, rather than your last app. Samsung TV app happened to be on the Baywatch channel every time my young children started the stupid thing. Finally, after it took 2 minutes to load the youtube app, I factory-reset the device, disco…

I have a similar experience with my high-end Samsung TV from 2013. The TV itself still works perfectly so I'm not replacing it soon (still 1080p, not 4K, but...), but over time, Samsung has steadily removed key features with each update. When I first bought it, it supported Skype video calls (and now the integrated webcam can't be used at all), IPTV streaming, and various third-party apps — all of which are now gone.…

This is exactly why "Smart" TVs don't make any sense. My in-laws have a perfectly fine Sony TV, it's nok 4K, but the HD picture quality is amazing still. Apps have slowly started to disappear as they are no longer being updated and new one aren't being added.

I don't know how this work, but either Sony or the streaming service must be making the apps, and neither seems interested in maintaining apps for a 10+ year old TV. So when the streaming services are updating their backend, older TV don't get updated applications.

Smart TVs make absolutely no sense, the streaming service are moving to fast, so you'll need a cheaper box, or a product that is support for a decade.

Re: Samsung Q990D unresponsive after 1020 firmware update

#85

Post by reverendsteveii »

tmpz22 wrote: post #20
AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #6

If the damage is actually as bad as it sounds, Samsung is probably talking with their lawyers and is being instructed to maintain radio silence so as to better prepare for the class-action lawsuit.

Wouldn’t radio silence increase damages to customers and result in increased liability?

Depends, radio silence will cost you money compared to just fixing the problem if that's feasible but it will save you money compared to accidentally admitting to liability in a rushed press release.

Re: Samsung Q990D unresponsive after 1020 firmware update

#86

Post by davkan »

MiddleEndian wrote: post #49
ethbr1 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No device should be updated without the *owner* explicit intention to do so. That point has practical issues, because most consumer electronic customers are technically dumb. Consequently, you end up with a long-tail of deployed device firmware versions, which makes support a nightmare (fix this external integration that broke... across 20 different versions). I'd phrase it more in terms of: - Every device must inc…

>That point has practical issues, because most consumer electronic customers are technically dumb. It's a speaker that worked fine until Samsung unilaterally broke it. I don't think the customers are the dumb ones here.

Customers will gladly use an outdated browser or OS with known exploits to access their most sensitive information. Automated updates are necessary evil. Even a smart speaker with a vulnerability could end up as part of a botnet.

Re: Samsung Q990D unresponsive after 1020 firmware update

#87

Post by jandrese »

tomstokes wrote: post #18

Two important features I insist on for products I develop: 1. Staged rollout of firmware updates. It’s common practice for apps and software but for some reason it’s less common with firmware. Rolling out to 1% (or less, depending on scale) of devices and waiting a day is cheap insurance. Side note: Build a good relationship with customer service people so you hear about these things immediately. 2. A failsafe firmwa…

The second point is the really important one here. Mistakes happen, having a factory reset that actually works is crucial to avoiding extremely expensive recalls.

I'm reminded of the time a random NPR station accidentally bricked the infotainment systems on thousands of Mazdas and because there was no factory reset feature they had to spend millions replacing head units. That's just bad design.

Re: Samsung Q990D unresponsive after 1020 firmware update

#88

Post by JoshTriplett »

csomar wrote: post #81
OtherShrezzing wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if that opens a threat vector from a security point of view? If an attacker knows that the golden firmware has some critical vulnerability which they can exploit easily, they can activate it at will by bricking the device and waiting for it to restart.

The golden firmware should reset to the old/first firmware of the device and nothing else. Keep it as simple as possible and restore the customer device back to an operational state.

The problem comes in if that old firmware has security holes, particularly if the device is network-connected.

Re: Samsung Q990D unresponsive after 1020 firmware update

#90

Post by drdaeman »

amelius wrote: post #58
tomstokes wrote: post #18

Two important features I insist on for products I develop: 1. Staged rollout of firmware updates. It’s common practice for apps and software but for some reason it’s less common with firmware. Rolling out to 1% (or less, depending on scale) of devices and waiting a day is cheap insurance. Side note: Build a good relationship with customer service people so you hear about these things immediately. 2. A failsafe firmwa…

This is what everybody wants, but almost nobody does. Time to market, etc.

It's almost exact same thing as purchasing an insurance.

If the management folks have personal health insurance, surely they must understand the concept and the need. And this is a much better deal because unlike actual insurance this is more like "invest once, enjoy forever" type of thing. And multi-stage boot chain, recovery partition and staged rollouts are not some rocket science that needs some serious expertise.

Yet, here we go. Humans are not really rational actors after all, and collective humans are even less so.

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