Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#111

Post by scantis » Fri, Mar 14, 2025, 4:23 PM UTC

samspot wrote: post #81

"But on the negative side, stoicism’s Providential claim that everything in the universe is already perfect and that things which seem bad or unjust are secretly good underneath (a claim Christianity borrowed from Stoicism) can be used to justify the idea that the rich and powerful are meant to be rich and powerful, that the poor and downtrodden are meant to be poor and downtrodden, and that even the worst actions ar…

In the story oh Hiob/Job,he is unaffected in his behavior and the trust instilled in him from others, which clearly discouble his person from his misfortune.

In the original there is no word for faith, believe or trust only for character. Job is of good character despite his misfortune, that makes him a man of God.

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#112

Post by mdiesel » Fri, Mar 14, 2025, 4:23 PM UTC

mjburgess wrote: post #28

sentimentscan wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, can you provide more sources, about the dictators and stoicism, also Marcus Aurelius was he a tyrant, mass murderer, and courtier?

There's a lot in just the wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Aurelius But be aware that most writings about him are roman, and hence state propaganda which glorify his actions. In order to see more clearly what his actions were, just imagine being their victim. He perpetrated a genocide against Germanic tribes in retribution. It's very hard to be a morally good roman emperor -- you can be seen as…

On the scale of leaders: not being needlessly cruel, trying to consider the impacts of policies beyond the immediate, and dedicating your days to ruling rather than enjoying whatever pleasure you pick makes him one of the "good" ones. Maybe that's a low bar, but even today not all leaders clear it and certainly we can compare to Commodus who came immediately after and the sources for which are similarly patchy, to compare.

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#113

Post by thanhhaimai » Fri, Mar 14, 2025, 4:23 PM UTC

samspot wrote: post #81

"But on the negative side, stoicism’s Providential claim that everything in the universe is already perfect and that things which seem bad or unjust are secretly good underneath (a claim Christianity borrowed from Stoicism) can be used to justify the idea that the rich and powerful are meant to be rich and powerful, that the poor and downtrodden are meant to be poor and downtrodden, and that even the worst actions ar…

> For one, that all bad things are actually good is not a tenet of Christianity and is not in the Bible

Just for my own learning, if it's not considered a tenet, why do I see this line of thought so often portrayed: "This is not bad. God made is so to test my faith."

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#114

Post by bigstrat2003 » Fri, Mar 14, 2025, 4:24 PM UTC

betenoire wrote: post #93

pj_mukh wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always saw Stoicism as “things around you are going to be really screwed up and panicking about it will make it worse” The first part of that sentence is opposite to what the author here suggests.

both "screwed up" and "perfect" are judgements calls/perspectives, and panicking isn't going to change things (panic doesn't necessarily make something worse either)

I think panic almost always makes things worse. There's a reason that in an emergency, the first piece of advice to people is "don't panic".

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#115

Post by mjburgess » Fri, Mar 14, 2025, 4:25 PM UTC

mdiesel wrote: post #112

mjburgess wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot in just the wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Aurelius But be aware that most writings about him are roman, and hence state propaganda which glorify his actions. In order to see more clearly what his actions were, just imagine being their victim. He perpetrated a genocide against Germanic tribes in retribution. It's very hard to be a morally good roman emperor -- you can be seen as…

On the scale of leaders: not being needlessly cruel, trying to consider the impacts of policies beyond the immediate, and dedicating your days to ruling rather than enjoying whatever pleasure you pick makes him one of the "good" ones. Maybe that's a low bar, but even today not all leaders clear it and certainly we can compare to Commodus who came immediately after and the sources for which are similarly patchy, to co…

> not being needlessly cruel

To whom?

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#116

Post by btilly » Fri, Mar 14, 2025, 4:26 PM UTC

mjburgess wrote: post #4

It's no accident that a roman emperor (tyrant, mass murderer, and courtier) is the premier famous stoic. Nor is it an accident that the next most famous case is that of British empire public schooling, british "stiff upper lip" stocisim. (EDIT: Marcus Aurelius) himself was no stoic philosopher, he merely wrote diaries to himself in his late days -- diaries he wanted burned, not published. And these were rehresals of…

I have read Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. Your description of how bitter and resentful they are is utterly bizarre, and bears no relation to the book that I read.

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#117

Post by kolanos » Fri, Mar 14, 2025, 4:27 PM UTC

oramit wrote: post #72

It's been interesting to watch and experience Techbros jump on different philosophical/religious trends over the years. Post 9/11 through the Great Financial Crisis New Atheism was all the rage. Once the tech boom was in full swing Stoicism became the dominant ideology. Now, post Covid I see a hard pivot towards Christianity, but importantly, "traditional" forms of it. Protestant sects are being ignored and Catholici…

> Now, post Covid I see a hard pivot towards Christianity, but importantly, "traditional" forms of it. Protestant sects are being ignored and Catholicism, or if you are really intense, Orthodoxy seems to be in vogue.

I have seen these trends as well, especially Orthodoxy of late. My assumption is this is a response to rampant moral relativism that has become the dominant culture in the west.

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#118

Post by overgard » Fri, Mar 14, 2025, 4:29 PM UTC

You know, I think people will read the headline and have an eat-the-rich-mindset and lump stoicism in with obnoxious tech bros. However, I would posit that if tech-bro's internalize the teachings of stoicism we'd all be better off. It's worth mentioning that Epictetus was a slave, so just because the rich and powerful are finding stoicism doesn't mean that stoicism is a philosophy for only the rich and powerful. Just as an example, stoicism is also very popular in recovery communities (along with Buddhism). As far as pragmatic philosophies go that you can apply easily and have quick benefits, stoicism is a great one.

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#119

Post by stereolambda » Fri, Mar 14, 2025, 4:30 PM UTC

Not a bad article, all things considered. Interesting, given the overall message, that the author manages to spin the worldly engagement that is still present in stoicism (as opposed to Epicureanism etc.) as somehow a suspicious thing. In Republican times the dominance of stoicism in Rome wasn't so pronounced, I think, and the elite followed all kinds of philosophies. And soon, under the Empire, the political engagement became more of a theatre anyways. Patrician families declined. So the whole idea of having an excuse to stay in politics is weaker that one might think. There was more of an incentive to shut off in your villa as much as you can, and just try to avoid displeasing the emperor.

Graeco-Roman world also created more patterns of radical political engagement than people tend to give it credit for (regardless of what you think of its legitimacy). Plato with his speculatively constructed vision of ideal republic. Ideologically motivated coups, like one of the Spartan king Cleomenes. Generations of social radicalism had looked at Gracchi. We are just too far removed from classical education to see and appreciate it.

The idea that you somehow have to pursue universal salvation as a part of and precondition of your personal happiness, I think this is extremely wrong-headed. Maybe not OP, but many people think you are morally obliged to be permanently depressed and want to ideologically control your every waking thought. In actuality, I'd say it is better to have internal calm and contentment to be able to achieve whatever you are able to achieve for the world.

As for popularity of ancient philosophy, I think some of this is it having more practical outlook and being less complicated, in a way, than most modern (meaning post-medieval) thought. Note that wide popularity of Enlightenment in 1700s also stemmed from it being more accessible to the masses in many ways. While also ancient stuff has enough of a "base lore" to be somewhat insulated from completely freewheeling "philosophical" crankery. That being said, I would encourage anyone to also look into Epicurean, skeptic etc. thought alongside stoicism. Cicero was somewhat right in trying to peruse and combine all this stuff.

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#120

Post by andoando » Fri, Mar 14, 2025, 4:31 PM UTC

andrewmutz wrote: post #58

mjburgess wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> prudence, fortitude, temperance, and justice I adopt rather the opposite virutes. Imprudence, risk, throwing-your-self-at-a-wall-until-you-cant, intemperance (conflict, debate, disagreement, competition) and pragmatism (address what is rather than what should be). Behind each of the stoic virutues is a psychological position to dettach, dissociate and live in a more abstracted conceptual space. This can be theraput…

That's all great and it sounds like stoicism isn't for you. But that doesn't mean that it's "a deeply hollow, dissociative, nihilistic philosophy which dresses up the status quo as 'God's plan' -- a rationalization of interest to the elite above all others." Virtues like prudence, fortitude, temperance, and justice can improve the lives of people of any part of society, not just the elites.

I was a staunch Stoic, and a hollow disassociative mess is exactly what I became.

Think of the end goal of the Stoic and what it takes to achieve it. At every misfortune, you rationalize and deny your natural emotions. If you do it well, you're an all understanding guru of life, sharing oneness with everything, and becoming nothing in particular.

We have to accept that we too are a part of nature and flawed imperfect beings who can be unreasonable, hate unnecessarily, be selfish without ultimate good reason, etc. It makes us the individuals that we are, and gives us the will to care and have something we intrinsically want to live for.