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In S3 simplicity is table stakes

allthingsdistributed.com

31–40 of 142 posts

Re: In S3 simplicity is table stakes

#31
post #26

S3 is the simplest CRUD app you could create. It's essentially just the 4 functions of C.R.U.D done to a file. Most problems in tech are not that simple. Note: not knocking the service. just pointing out not all things are so inherently basic (and valuable at the same time).

That's the public interface. The underlying architecture is where the power is.

Re: In S3 simplicity is table stakes

#32

S3 is up there as one of my favorite tech products ever. Over the years I've used it for all sorts of things but most recently I've been using it to roll my own DB backup system. One of the things that shocks me about the system is the level of object durability. A few years ago I was taking an AWS certification course and learned that their durability number means that one can expect to loose data about once every 1…

> but as I learned more I realized that it had some wild features that they all managed to hide properly so when you start it looks like a simple system but you can gradually get deeper and deeper until your S3 bucket is doing some pretty sophisticated stuff.

Over the years working on countless projects I’ve come to realize that the more “easy” something looks to an end user, the more work it took to make it that way. It takes a lot of work to create and polish something to the state where you’d call it graceful, elegant and beautiful.

There are exceptions for sure, but often times hidden under every delightful interface is an iceberg of complexity. When something “just works” you know there was a hell of a lot of effort that went into making it so.

Re: In S3 simplicity is table stakes

#33
post #25

S3 is up there as one of my favorite tech products ever. Over the years I've used it for all sorts of things but most recently I've been using it to roll my own DB backup system. One of the things that shocks me about the system is the level of object durability. A few years ago I was taking an AWS certification course and learned that their durability number means that one can expect to loose data about once every 1…

> their durability number means that one can expect to loose data about once every 10,000 years What does that mean? If I have 1 million objects, I loose 100 per year?

Amazon claims 99.999999999% durability.

If you have ten million objects, you should lose one every 10k years or so.

Re: In S3 simplicity is table stakes

#35
post #20

tf is that title supposed to mean?

Table stakes is a poker term meaning the absolute minimum amount you are allowed to bet. So the title translates to "In S3, simplicity is the bare minimum" or "In S3, simplicity is so important that if we didn't have it, we might as well not even have S3."

It's a risky idiom in general because it's often used to prevent debate. "Every existing product has feature X, so feature X is table stakes." "Why are we testing whether we really need this feature, it's table stakes!" My observation has been that "table stakes" features are often the best ones to reject. (Not so in the case of this title, though)

Re: In S3 simplicity is table stakes

#36
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's going to depend a lot on what your needs are, particularly in terms of redundancy and durability. S3 takes care of a lot of that for you. One server with a RAID array can survive, usually, 1 or maybe 2 drive failures. The remaining drives in the array will have to do more work when a failed drive is replaced and data is copied to the new array member. This sometimes leads to additional failures before replacem…

How many businesses or applications really need 99.999999999% durability and 99.99% availability? Is your whole stack organized to deliver the forementioned durability and availability?

I think that this is, to Andy's point, basically about simplicity. It's not that your business necessarily needs 11 9s of durability for continuity purposes, but it sure is nice that you never have to think about the durability of the storage layer (vs. even something like EBS where 5 9s of durability isn't quite enough to go from "improbable" to "impossible").

Re: In S3 simplicity is table stakes

#37
post #26

S3 is the simplest CRUD app you could create. It's essentially just the 4 functions of C.R.U.D done to a file. Most problems in tech are not that simple. Note: not knocking the service. just pointing out not all things are so inherently basic (and valuable at the same time).

That’s when you really know you hid all the complexity well. When people call your globally replicated data store with granular permissions, sophisticated data retention policies, versioning, and manage to have, what, seven (ten?) nines or something, “simple”.

No problem. I’m sure ChatGPT could cook up a replacement in a weekend. Like Dropbox it’s just rsync with some scripts that glue it together. How hard could it possibly be?

I mean people serve entire websites right out of s3 buckets. Using it as a crude CDN of sorts.

It’s a modern marvel.

Re: In S3 simplicity is table stakes

#38
post #19

S3 is up there as one of my favorite tech products ever. Over the years I've used it for all sorts of things but most recently I've been using it to roll my own DB backup system. One of the things that shocks me about the system is the level of object durability. A few years ago I was taking an AWS certification course and learned that their durability number means that one can expect to loose data about once every 1…

It’s designed for that level of durability, but it’s only as good as a single change or correlated set of hardware failures that can quickly change the theoretical durability model. Or even corrupting data is possible too.

You're totally correct, but these products also need to be specifically designed against these failure cases (i.e. it's more than just MTTR + MTTF == durability). You (of course) can't just run deployments without validating that the durability property is satisfied throughout the change.

Re: In S3 simplicity is table stakes

#39
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> their durability number means that one can expect to loose data about once every 10,000 years What does that mean? If I have 1 million objects, I loose 100 per year?

Amazon claims 99.999999999% durability. If you have ten million objects, you should lose one every 10k years or so.

How does that compare to competitors and things like distributed file systems?

Re: In S3 simplicity is table stakes

#40
post #10

I have a feeling that economies of scale have a point of diminishing returns. At what point does it become more costly and complicated to store your data on S3 versus just maintaining a server with RAID disks somewhere? S3 is an engineering marvel, but it's an insanely complicated backend architecture just to store some files.

That's going to depend a lot on what your needs are, particularly in terms of redundancy and durability. S3 takes care of a lot of that for you. One server with a RAID array can survive, usually, 1 or maybe 2 drive failures. The remaining drives in the array will have to do more work when a failed drive is replaced and data is copied to the new array member. This sometimes leads to additional failures before replacem…

> One server with a RAID array can survive, usually, 1 or maybe 2 drive failures.

Standard RAID configurations can only handle 2 failures, but there are libraries and filesystems allowing arbitrarily high redundancy.

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