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“Normal” engineers are the key to great teams

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Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams

#141

Post by grandempire »

NalNezumi wrote: post #140
grandempire wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In every project I have worked in big and small - a key person took charge. Others contributed, but that individual made it happen.

so in every key project you've worked on, a one single person took care of the coding from DevOps to frontend/backend, deployment, testing, and all other coding required beyond "key functionality"? I think it says more about the size of the project and the complexity of the task that you've worked on, rather than "10x engineer vs normal engineer". Not even at a 10 person startup have I seen "one" person done everythi…

> one single person took care of the coding from DevOps to frontend/backend, deployment, testing, and all other coding required beyond "key functionality"?

I didn’t say that. Read it again.

It’s not even the same person every time, people trade off being that key person.

> I think it says more about the size of the project and the complexity of the task

You have no idea. Please address the ideas rather than making personal assumptions.

Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams

#142

Post by hot_gril »

superconduct123 wrote: post #24

I think 10x is an exaggeration but I've found its really common to have 1-2 people who do a big bulk of the work The thing I don't understand personally with these people is why they care so much about work when the rewards are not proportionate to doing so much extra work. I get it if you're a founder of a startup but not if you're at a big company Yet every big company I've worked at there are always 1-2 people on…

It's only a regular 9-5. Family is #1 priority, but that doesn't mean I don't take pride in my work. What I get in return is the ability to work remotely in my hometown while the manager wants the rest of the team coming into the office in the Bay Area.

Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams

#143

Post by awesome_dude »

ambicapter wrote: post #111
lovich wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>These days it feels a bit like another well known toxic field, finance, in that people conflate an outsized leverage for personal valor. Didn't we pass the rubicon on that in the early 2010s? I personally don't feel that its "like" finance but that its the exact same behaviors from the exact same set of people. Once tech stopped being a bunch of nerds in a basement and started being a source of wealth and power, it…

I don't think it "attracted" a certain kind of people, I think the people who were already in tech just became more wealthy and powerful, and that, predictably, brought out the worst in some. The worst qualities of "tech" people can be conflated but I think have a different flavor than the worst qualities of "finance" people. It's really just the same obnoxious behavior you can spot in young tech people. Some people…

Yeah - this is a bit like "competition brings out the best in people" when the reality is that it also brings out the worst in people

Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams

#144

Post by andoando »

aisisbdidns wrote: post #127
0xB31B1B wrote: post #117

I could not disagree more with nearly everything in this article. Individuals ship software not teams, unless you are pair programming. Nearly all complex technical projects are owned by one super smart person (Ex: linux). You don't need to have a scientific measurement of productivity to know that in your median team of 12 there really are 2 people carrying the water for everyone else. A players hire A players, B pl…

You’re over optimizing for engineering skill. The majority of projects don’t need a team full of A players, and trying to get that is going to limit you. Get rid of team members that make your life harder. Keep the ones that make it easier. > Individuals ship software not teams I can’t see how this is remotely true outside of contorting some definitions of “ship”.

It really depends on the project no.

For a lot of stuff, one guy who knows what he is doing is worth infinitely more than any number of engineers, because this job is mostly about knowledge, not labor hours.

Even in a regular enterprise web application, one guy whose just more skilled in architecting solutions is insanely valuable. You dont need a bunch of engineers writing a bunch of inconsistent/unthought out apis and architecture, you need one guy to lead it

Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams

#145

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

only-one1701 wrote: post #136
ambicapter wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it "attracted" a certain kind of people, I think the people who were already in tech just became more wealthy and powerful, and that, predictably, brought out the worst in some. The worst qualities of "tech" people can be conflated but I think have a different flavor than the worst qualities of "finance" people. It's really just the same obnoxious behavior you can spot in young tech people. Some people…

It's a "yes and" situation. You're completely correct that people who were already in tech just became more wealthy, but there's no question that in the mid to late teens (in particular), tech fundamentally became, for many, about $$$. There was a huge migration of people who couldn't write code from NY to SF in a "there's gold in them thar hills" kind of way. Now the people entering the industry by and large see it…

Same kind of thing happened in the early 2000's, when the Web suddenly took off.

For a while, if you knew how to type into a text editor, you were hired as a "webmaster." Lots of people made a lot of money, writing awful stuff.

If there's money to be made, people will pour in. They aren't necessarily bad folks, and many of them are skilled, and willing to work hard, so the trope of "thousands of terrible engineers" is maybe not that accurate.

However, I kind of despair at the management skills of the folks that run the teams, and the decision-makers that set the bar.

But the story is correct. Teams need cohesion, a lot more than rockstars. We can do together, what I can't do alone.

Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams

#146

Post by mdgrech23 »

0xB31B1B wrote: post #117

I could not disagree more with nearly everything in this article. Individuals ship software not teams, unless you are pair programming. Nearly all complex technical projects are owned by one super smart person (Ex: linux). You don't need to have a scientific measurement of productivity to know that in your median team of 12 there really are 2 people carrying the water for everyone else. A players hire A players, B pl…

when people talk about a players I feel like a lot of times it's really just the person who knows the project best or maybe they wrote a lot of the original code so they have the best idea of how it works. My point being who's an A player in my opinion is not reflective of actual skill per se but rather other factors.

Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams

#147

Post by swatcoder »

ambicapter wrote: post #111
lovich wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>These days it feels a bit like another well known toxic field, finance, in that people conflate an outsized leverage for personal valor. Didn't we pass the rubicon on that in the early 2010s? I personally don't feel that its "like" finance but that its the exact same behaviors from the exact same set of people. Once tech stopped being a bunch of nerds in a basement and started being a source of wealth and power, it…

I don't think it "attracted" a certain kind of people, I think the people who were already in tech just became more wealthy and powerful, and that, predictably, brought out the worst in some. The worst qualities of "tech" people can be conflated but I think have a different flavor than the worst qualities of "finance" people. It's really just the same obnoxious behavior you can spot in young tech people. Some people…

No, the field grew tremendously and you can see a clear generational bias -- by years of experience, not age -- where the cohort from the last 10-15 years has a completely different understanding of what the craft is [software engineering vs business development] and how to approach it [optimal solution vs soonest deliverable].

You can also trace personal backgrounds and you'll see a much higher representation in the newer cohort coming from upper middle class backgrounds with families in careers like finance, consulting, medicine/dentistry whereas more in the older cohort came from more modest middle class backgrounds in engineering, academia, or even working class trades.

Of course, there were always some of all of these people in the industry, but the balance shifted dramatically during the last couple booms, tracking the atypically high compensation standards set by FAANG's since 2010 or so.

Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams

#148

Post by throw4847285 »

t43562 wrote: post #99

Sometimes I feel useless compared to other people - usually while I'm struggling with something and seem to be achieving nothing. This talk of xN programmers absolutely hits on all my insecurities. Then other days I solve 3 problems for other people which are easy for me because I have bashed my head against those particular kinds of walls before. I suddenly feel worthy again. I'm productive when I know exactly what…

Thanks for your candor. Your experience is extremely common.

Who benefits from rhetoric about xN programmers? It's about extracting the most value out of you in an unsustainable way. It's shortsighted. If you're going to be productive while maintaining your sanity, it is an uphill battle. This is especially true for people who are especially sensitive to this kind of pressure, and can drive themselves into a wall if they aren't careful.

Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams

#149

Post by 0xB31B1B »

mdgrech23 wrote: post #146
0xB31B1B wrote: post #117

I could not disagree more with nearly everything in this article. Individuals ship software not teams, unless you are pair programming. Nearly all complex technical projects are owned by one super smart person (Ex: linux). You don't need to have a scientific measurement of productivity to know that in your median team of 12 there really are 2 people carrying the water for everyone else. A players hire A players, B pl…

when people talk about a players I feel like a lot of times it's really just the person who knows the project best or maybe they wrote a lot of the original code so they have the best idea of how it works. My point being who's an A player in my opinion is not reflective of actual skill per se but rather other factors.

Yes, exactly! And that is good!

Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams

#150

Post by not2b »

strangattractor wrote: post #22
jaggederest wrote: post #5

I like this article particularly because I think the trope that there's something unique and different about software engineering is pretty toxic, both to we people in the field and people looking to employ people in the field. These days it feels a bit like another well known toxic field, finance, in that people conflate an outsized leverage for personal valor. It's laudable to do your work well and go home to the r…

I was once considered a 10X. I would work all night. Rewrite code simply because I found it objectionable - lots of things I'd never do now. Mostly after working those long hours I return after a long rest and spend most of my time fixing all the new and ridiculous problems I created while working tired. Things may have gotten done a little faster. Never once did it even matter - there was no material benefit to the…

This sounds like a management failure more than your failure. You should have had someone who would have steered you in the right direction, getting you to focus your energy on things that mattered.
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