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Steam Networks

worksinprogress.co

41–50 of 161 posts

Re: Steam Networks

#41
post #30

The article cites end-to-end efficiency as 60%. Plus the costs of maintaining steam generators and the pipe network. Electrical transmission systems are roughly 85% efficient to the consumer; together with boring old resistive electric radiators which are 100% efficient. So is there any reason to subscribe to the steam system for new construction?

Most electricity is generated by using steam to turn turbines, right? So it definitely seems more efficient to just use the steam directly, instead of converting it to electrical energy and then converting it back to heat.

Except you can ONLY use steam for heating and transporting it over distance is not efficient. If you turn steam into electricity you can use it for ANYTHING and transport it over long distances efficiently.

Re: Steam Networks

#42
post #30

The article cites end-to-end efficiency as 60%. Plus the costs of maintaining steam generators and the pipe network. Electrical transmission systems are roughly 85% efficient to the consumer; together with boring old resistive electric radiators which are 100% efficient. So is there any reason to subscribe to the steam system for new construction?

Most electricity is generated by using steam to turn turbines, right? So it definitely seems more efficient to just use the steam directly, instead of converting it to electrical energy and then converting it back to heat.

That reasoning isn't enough on its own, because on the clients' end, electric heat pumps can be more efficient than direct steam heating. Actually their "efficiency" is far above 100%,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance

Re: Steam Networks

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be a shitty steam network that allowed steam to just leak.

you can see it pretty often in NYC, coming up from vents/pipes in the road i don't think it's steam leaking. it's drainage/sewer water being heated by the steam system (and other heat sources down there) enough that it evaporates and rises up to the street, and then condenses into vapor/fog because the street level is cooler

That's what I figured.

Re: Steam Networks

#44
post #30

The article cites end-to-end efficiency as 60%. Plus the costs of maintaining steam generators and the pipe network. Electrical transmission systems are roughly 85% efficient to the consumer; together with boring old resistive electric radiators which are 100% efficient. So is there any reason to subscribe to the steam system for new construction?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogeneration

Re: Steam Networks

#45
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most electricity is generated by using steam to turn turbines, right? So it definitely seems more efficient to just use the steam directly, instead of converting it to electrical energy and then converting it back to heat.

Except you can ONLY use steam for heating and transporting it over distance is not efficient. If you turn steam into electricity you can use it for ANYTHING and transport it over long distances efficiently.

It also means that at the local scale it might be better to distribute steam. Think about future residential nuclear plants. It might not be worth investing into steam distribution on top of electrical as electrical is more flexible, but there might be steam that's residue otherwise that could be used on heating.

Re: Steam Networks

#46
Pratt university in Brooklyn used to have a gentleman working there named Conrad Milster. He is a steam head and machinist who maintaining Pratts secret "working museum", a turn of the century steam generating plant for the campus. The plant also features two boilers, the original boiler which originally provided both heat and power and an additional boiler was added in the 30's to add capacity as the campus expanded. Milster also lived on campus in the old row houses. His was special, a full set of gauges and meters in his living room was plumbed to the plant so he could keep an eye on the boilers from he comfort of his home. He also said that steam from the plant not only heated the campus but a few buildings off campus that surrounded it. I never got to ask which buildings though. So there very well might be a little steam network in Brooklyn around Pratt.

This is located in the basement of one of the buildings on campus. The power plant consists of three Ames Iron works single piston steam generators producing 120V DC fed to a marble switch board. Another piece is an early non-functioning steam turbine DC generator, WW2 era diesel generator from a battle ship. A 30HP motor-generator set used to provide 120V DC to the two service elevators in the building. And in the boiler room are numerous antique yet still functioning feed water pumps (the original steam driven feed water pumps actually do most of the work with newer electric pumps kept for standby) On the wall of the boiler room is a functional steam driven Ingersoll Rand air compressor. Amazing place. When I first visited in the 90's the MG set was still running providing power to the service elevators though they were replaced in the 00's leaving the MG set idle. There is also an old giant wood and brass Master clock in the office that was wired to every other clock on campus so whatever time you set on the master, the other clocks would then run super fact until they come around to the set time. It was running up to the 80's I think but Milster said a renovation crew hacked up all the wiring and no one ever bothered to fix it.

Milster was fired a few years ago supposedly after he refused to remove the resident stray cats who lived in the plant (they even had their own little decorated doorway.) The reason being a union employee was allergic to the cats and kept complaining until they fired him. Shame because anyone who works with antique steam equipment knows Milster and hes full of ancient knowledge no one will ever regain.

Edit: If you are into steam then look up Conrad Milster. I had the pleasure of talking to him a few times and he's such a nice and knowledgeable individual. He even started one of the 120V generators just for me after I said "Wish I could see it run" and he was like "sure" then opens a valve and slowly opens another to get it up to speed. Scary as the inertial lever arm bangs around loudly in the flywheel but then its goes near silent and hums away. Steam engines are very quiet.

Re: Steam Networks

#47
post #30

The article cites end-to-end efficiency as 60%. Plus the costs of maintaining steam generators and the pipe network. Electrical transmission systems are roughly 85% efficient to the consumer; together with boring old resistive electric radiators which are 100% efficient. So is there any reason to subscribe to the steam system for new construction?

Yes: very low temperature steam is useless from a thermodynamic perspective, cannot be used to perform (meaningful amounts of) work or generate electricity. When sourced a waste byproduct of an electric power plant, it's essentially free—it has no other economic value. There's zero opportunity cost of "you could use it for some other purpose instead".

Sadly this article doesn't make it clear whether it's waste steam from electricity generation or steam made explicitly for this purpose. It also doesn't specify what the fuel is now - it used to be coal, is that still the case?

Wikipedia says "Approximately 30% of the ConEd steam system's installed capacity and 50% of the annual steam generated comes from cogeneration" i.e waste steam, which is .. half good, I suppose.

It also gives https://web.archive.org/web/20101207021857/http://coned.com/... which I guess has the rest of the details in.

Re: Steam Networks

#48
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most electricity is generated by using steam to turn turbines, right? So it definitely seems more efficient to just use the steam directly, instead of converting it to electrical energy and then converting it back to heat.

Except you can ONLY use steam for heating and transporting it over distance is not efficient. If you turn steam into electricity you can use it for ANYTHING and transport it over long distances efficiently.

Steam in NYC is also used for cooling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_steam_system

Re: Steam Networks

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most electricity is generated by using steam to turn turbines, right? So it definitely seems more efficient to just use the steam directly, instead of converting it to electrical energy and then converting it back to heat.

That reasoning isn't enough on its own, because on the clients' end, electric heat pumps can be more efficient than direct steam heating. Actually their "efficiency" is far above 100%, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance

And their efficiency plummets starting at 40F and below.

Re: Steam Networks

#50
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That reasoning isn't enough on its own, because on the clients' end, electric heat pumps can be more efficient than direct steam heating. Actually their "efficiency" is far above 100%, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance

And their efficiency plummets starting at 40F and below.

The efficiency of modern cold-climate heat pumps plummets to 200-300% at 40F and perhaps 175% at 5F.
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