51–60 of 110 posts
The West do try to control India through these institutions and rankings, and Indian government is trying to use that to hide some of their shortcomings.
Narrative controlling is necessary, but I hope the actual work is done too.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
It doesn't help that the nature of "democracy" is itself endlessly contested. E.g. both supporters and critics of the way Romanian courts have treated Georgescu seem to claim they are "defending democracy". There are important advantages to a social contract which is simple and unambiguous.
> It doesn't help that the nature of "democracy" is itself endlessly contested. It's not really; I've never heard someone say that, in fact. The nature of propaganda is to make everything uncertain, and then everyone is frozen and nobody has done wrong.
Lots of disputes within democracies consist of both sides implicitly claiming their position is "more democratic". E.g. how much power should the US president have over US bureaucracies? Some say that because bureaucrats are "unelected", the president should have more control. Others say that too much executive control is authoritarian. In both cases, the nature of "democracy" is what's [implicitly] at stake.
>propaganda
* I speak truth to power.
* He is exercising his right to freedom of speech.
* They spread propaganda.
I don't think the phrase "propaganda" is meaningless, necessary. But this reinforces my point from earlier, about how our social contract could use more simplicity and less ambiguity.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am pretty shocked at that Romanian court ruling though. It seems like the entire questioning of the election outcomes was motivated by EU leadership not liking the result of democracy. The decision to not stop at redoing the election but to then ban the candidate seems motivated by the fact that opinion polls show him to still be winning even today despite the alleged “election interference”, months after he won th…
Isn't it Romania, and not the EU? Also, what do you do about election manipulation? 'Nothing' isn't an acceptable answer.
I agree, and this reinforces my point about the ambiguity of the social contract. When the US constitution was written in 1787, the telegraph wasn't even invented. Now we all live in a single "global village". People from all over the world are commenting on politics in other nations in real time. Where do you draw the line for "election manipulation"? No one seems to know, exactly.
Modi has the highest approval rating, according to western pollsters, of any leader in the world. India’s elections are free and fair. That’s all democracy requires. Democracy doesn’t mean western democracy or liberal democracy. Shadi Hamid has done excellent work on this issue: https://www.brookings.edu/books/the-problem-of-democracy-ame... ; see also https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/jan/18/the-problem-of...
> Democracy doesn’t mean western democracy or liberal democracy It's something I disagreed with you about before, but have come to agree with you about Raynier. Indonesia, Malaysia, Cambodia, Turkiye, and Israel have all begun falling out of the US orbit after we began pressing on the liberalism aspect. We should fight for liberal democracy at home, but it is not something we should necessarily evangelize abroad, as…
Elite and economic consolidation is a corrupting force, though. A country's actions are just as important as it's stated values - if it partners with others who don't share those values, then it's just performance. If your country signals that it doesn't actually care about its purported values, then why would any country which does care want to create long-term relationships or otherwise ally themselves with you? How would anyone be able to trust you if you compromise your foundational principles for economic gain? How could you trust them?
Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Democracy doesn’t mean western democracy or liberal democracy It's something I disagreed with you about before, but have come to agree with you about Raynier. Indonesia, Malaysia, Cambodia, Turkiye, and Israel have all begun falling out of the US orbit after we began pressing on the liberalism aspect. We should fight for liberal democracy at home, but it is not something we should necessarily evangelize abroad, as…
> elite and economic consolidation plays a greater role in building lasting ties with a country instead of ideological ties Elite and economic consolidation is a corrupting force, though. A country's actions are just as important as it's stated values - if it partners with others who don't share those values, then it's just performance. If your country signals that it doesn't actually care about its purported values,…
The US government funded social infrastructure like health clinics, schools, and sanitation systems, but the Chinese government funded hard infra projects like canals, highways, energy systems, and weaponry without human rights oversight [0].
When Cambodia decided to end their democratic experiment, the US condemned it, but the Chinese government was indifferent. And now Cambodia has solidly shifted to the Chinese sphere of influence.
This story has repeated all across ASEAN from Thailand to Malaysia to Indonesia.
The reality is it's only the economic, military, and poltical decisionmakers that matter, and if you needle them too much, they will try to find alternatives or build their own strategic autonomy.
France did the same thing in the De Gaulle era for the exact same reasons (military regime that didn't like getting needled about democratic backsliding).
> then why would any country which does care want to create long-term relationships or otherwise ally themselves with you
Cold hard cash, weapons, and legitimacy. Which is what ASEAN countries have begun to do by shifting closer towards China. They don't want or need lectures - they want to maintain their own power.
Notice how Europe has grown silent about Turkish democratic decline now that European nations require Turkish support to stabilize Ukraine. And if PiS wins the Polish elections, you won't hear similar complaints about "democratic backsliding" compared to the PiS barely 3 years ago. When push comes to shove, values don't matter much.
In an era where great power politics has returned, values matter less than hard power.
[0] - https://www.iseas.edu.sg/articles-commentaries/iseas-perspec...
A few things that stand out (not that it's that shocking!) - Narratives matter -- a lot . Second order effects of such subjective rankings are real . Imagine getting a credit downgrade because someone perceives the democracy to be under threat - "the government had reverse-engineered the ranking, strategically identifying procedural tweaks that directly boosted India’s scores in Delhi and Mumbai—the two cities evalua…
Statecraft at its finest? Next, I'll hear that KPI manipulation sets the standard for good engineering...
My hot take is that, viewed under the right conditions, India today is what a long-term MAGA victory in the US would look like (as in multiple consecutive Presidential administrations). Now obviously the religion must be changed; obviously also the demographic/racial aspect is different too. But in general, to see how MAGA might operate if it succeeded completely, look at India.
The party is headed by an alleged murderer (people died and cases against him conveniently disappeared as soon as the party came to power)[2][3]. He's the mastermind while Modi is just the face. Modi hasn't held a single unscripted press conference/interview in the last 10 years and can't handle questions that aren't pre-arranged.
Its not just related to India, Right wings across the globe have more or less figured this out.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BJP_IT_Cell
[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-68653573
[3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/16/amit-s...
Modi has the highest approval rating, according to western pollsters, of any leader in the world. India’s elections are free and fair. That’s all democracy requires. Democracy doesn’t mean western democracy or liberal democracy. Shadi Hamid has done excellent work on this issue: https://www.brookings.edu/books/the-problem-of-democracy-ame... ; see also https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/jan/18/the-problem-of...
> India’s elections are free and fair. Are they, when people opposing one candidate are jailed? > That’s all democracy requires. That is certainly false. Democracy isn't mob rule, or as the saying go, it's not two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. Democracy is about self-determination for each person; if people in minority don't have self-determination, it's not democracy at all.
> Western standards didn’t apply here. India had its own definition of democracy. I think this is core thrust of narrative of Indian state and its card carrying supporters. On ideological part this of course makes sense. But practical aspect of cheap cost of informational bit vs physical bit that makes state so obsessed with this. As it makes so easily achievable. It would be very much clear to anyone who do not spen…
I disagree with the physical infrastructure bit. Indian Govt has invested massively in all kinds of infrastructure and they don’t seem to be slowing down. All of this has already paid off massive dividends and will continue to accelerate development.
To be fair though it may be better than lot of other poorer nations.