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Extreme poverty in India has dropped to negligible levels

economist.com

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Re: Extreme poverty in India has dropped to negligible levels

#131

Post by nelblu »

profsummergig wrote: post #36

India really needs to work on consciousness-raising regarding sanitation/cleanliness. Modi made a start in 2014. I don't know why the momentum stopped. Some of the videos coming out of there (e.g. the recent video of the railway employee throwing a huge amount of used disposable plastic food trays off a moving train) are shocking.

I wouldn't say the momentum has stopped.

Anecdote alert: I travel to India at least once in a year and I have to take the train each time (sleeper class) and I can definitely attest that things have significantly improved since I was a kid. I have been taking these same trains for over 25 years now. For starters the toilets actually don't dump directly between the tracks. The railway employees seem to be quite happy and take pride in their job (they used to always have depressing faces when I was growing up).

Another anecdote : If 20 years ago you took a flight that goes to India, you would be frustrated with the condition of the toilets. It was so bad I used to avoid Indian carriers just because of that and intentionally take a layover in Europe so at least part of the flying experience would be cleaner. These days I don't feel that way, I find flights to India pretty much the same as any other flights.

That said, there is still a LOT to be done, but I think overall people do seem to care about hygiene more than they used to years ago. Also, assuming there is always a certain percentage of population that will never care about this (in any country) it is bound to look a bit worse in India due to the higher population density.

Re: Extreme poverty in India has dropped to negligible levels

#132

Post by HPsquared »

matkoniecz wrote: post #123
HPsquared wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also: anything relating to home cooking, exercise, self-care, relationships and caring for children and other relatives. Only "paid professional" services are counted which are often much worse quality than the organic untaxed real thing.

It depends on estimates. I have seen estimates which included all that and also things like illegal prostitution in services category. https://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/27/business/worldbusiness/27... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/sep/30/nicholaswatt.m... > The revised GDP will include some money from illegal activities, such as money from cigarette and drinks smuggling, prostitution and money laundering. (Gre…

That's still 'trade' though. As in, money changing hands.

Re: Extreme poverty in India has dropped to negligible levels

#133

Post by slothtrop »

ksynwa wrote: post #16
jso33 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is measured and there are targets - https://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/hunger/

That's correct but my point is what kind of poverty is the poverty line measuring if it does not take into account how much people are getting to eat. This access to PPP adjusted dollar amount is clearly not a good heuristic for it because somehow extreme poverty has been alleviated while having a hunger index worse than North Korea.

https://www.unicef.org/india/reports/indias-progress-malnutr...

Malnourishment is also steadily diminishing. Effectively because food affordability improves as poverty diminishes. It's a good proxy.

Re: Extreme poverty in India has dropped to negligible levels

#134

Post by amriksohata »

Before British rule India had one of the highest GDPs in the world, it became impoverished after the loot and famines of British rule. Then it had 60+ years of corrupt and stagnant rule, in the last decade or so the people have had enough and are now voting in people only who believe in development. This is what you are seeing in this data.

Re: Extreme poverty in India has dropped to negligible levels

#135

Post by HPsquared »

okr wrote: post #110
HPsquared wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also: anything relating to home cooking, exercise, self-care, relationships and caring for children and other relatives. Only "paid professional" services are counted which are often much worse quality than the organic untaxed real thing.

Interesting. So you would say, if someone has a talent for cooking, specializes himself, becomes a professional, paid by people who enjoy the food, you would be at least sceptical, when it comes to quality? I see paint jobs by people done by themselves. And compare it with paid professional servers. The pendulum always swings to professional. :)

If that person makes a home-cooked meal for their family, no doubt adding value to the world, the value added is not counted towards GDP. Only the "money (or something else taxable) changing hands" transactions are counted.

Re: Extreme poverty in India has dropped to negligible levels

#136

Post by slothtrop »

ViktorRay wrote: post #53

China and India had similar levels of poverty 50 years ago. How come China today is so different from India today? In terms of cleanliness and poverty elimination specifically. I know China liberalized in the 80’s and India in the 90’s. So you could say that’s a 10 year difference. But China 10 years ago was still very different from India even today. Does anyone have any ideas?

Check this out: https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/book-review-how-asia-works

The odd one out in this assessment is India, because it did some similar things (land reform) without success. A difference might be that India sheltered businesses from foreign competition and didn't encourage and invest as much. Another, is that you need caste connections to do business. Culturally I intuit that the upper-castes that controlled government were less interested in rapid nationwide progress, unlike the ideologues that led South Korea and China. They lived comfortable lives and hung their hats on that.

Re: Extreme poverty in India has dropped to negligible levels

#138

Post by Bayart »

copx wrote: post #17
codethief wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free housing & food? Which country is that?

The UK is infamous for housing illegal immigrants in hotels, and they don't just get free food but free money, too. Oh, and free healthcare. Free money, housing, and healthcare for everyone is also the law here in Germany, which is why we get flooded by illegal immigrants too.. ..and that's why these Western European welfare states are collapsing. You can only afford something like this if your population overwhelmin…

> ..and that's why these Western European welfare states are collapsing.

No, it's not. The weight of illegals on the welfare system is a rounding error compared to the effects of an aging population. And if you were familiar with people in this situation rather than spitting out far-right talking points you'd know that's it's not an enviable situation and not one they yearn to stay in.

Re: Extreme poverty in India has dropped to negligible levels

#139

Post by ta20240528 »

defrost wrote: post #46
ta20240528 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes it harder (impossible even) to take precise measurements deep into the decimal places if you have massive contours in the very thing (wealth) you are trying to measure with just one scalar number. Diversity is not meant in the modern political interpretation. As an less triggering exercise: try record in a single number the temperature - and change - of a large geographically diverse place like Australia - w…

If the mean rolling average of all tempreture readings across Australia moved by 0.5 across a twelve month period that would indeed be a significant change that would certainly mean something .

Indeed, but not if your thermometer could only measure in 2°C increments.

You don't gain accuracy by averaging a bunch of rough measurements, especially if the micro-climate has a lot of diversity.

Statistics is tough.

Re: Extreme poverty in India has dropped to negligible levels

#140

Post by mapt »

apwell23 wrote: post #114
ksynwa wrote: post #5

I don't understand the significant of metrics like the international poverty line. Seems like the only point of its existence is to create a sense of progress or maybe exaggerate it. They never account for basic stuff like how many calories people get to eat, let alone the quality of nutrition. Last year I read an article saying like 30% of children in India are stunted.

> Last year I read an article saying like 30% of children in India are stunted. We were solidly middle class in india that never went hungry. All our kids in USA now are atleast 3-4 inches taller than us. They are often taller than their parents in their mid teens.

The Lancet suggests that the difference between very poor nutrition and great nutrition adds up to roughly 8 inches (20cm) of adult height. Height remains very genetically heritable, aside from that.

https://www.weforum.org/stories/2020/11/children-height-gap-...

You never went hungry, but did you have a reliable supply of all the micronutrients, and an abundance of protein? At all periods from birth to the end of your teens when growth plates ossified?

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