Live data from Hacker News

People are just as bad as my LLMs

wilsoniumite.com

101–110 of 173 posts

Re: People are just as bad as my LLMs

#101

> ...a lot of the safeguards and policy we have to manage humans own unreliability may serve us well in managing the unreliability of AI systems too. It seems like an incredibly bad outcome if we accept "AI" that's fundamentally flawed in a way similar to if not worse than humans and try to work around it rather than relegating it to unimportant tasks while we work towards a standard of intelligence we'd otherwise ex…

What is your measure of intelligence?

I think using the word “intelligence” when speaking of computers, beyond a kind of figure of speech, is anthropomorphizing, and it is a common pseudoscientific habit that must go.

What is most characteristic about human intelligence is the ability to abstract from particular, concrete instances of things we experience. This allows us to form general concepts which are the foundation of reason. Analysis requires concepts (as concepts are what are analyzed), inference requires concepts (as we determine logical relations between them).

We could say that computers might simulate intelligent behavior in some way or other, but this is observer relative not an objective property of the machine, and it is a category mistake to call computers intelligent in any way that is coherent and not the result of projecting qualities onto things that do not possess them.

What makes all of this even more mystifying is that, first, the very founding papers of computer science speak of effective methods, which is by definition about methods that are completely mechanical and formal, and this stripped of the substantive conceptual content it can be applied to. Historically, this practically meant instructions given to human computers who merely completed them without any comprehension of what they were participating in. Second, computers are formal models, not physical machines. Physical machines simulate the computer formalism, but are not identical with the formalism. And as Kripke and Searle showed, there is no way in which you can say that a computer is objectively calculating anything! When we use a computer to add two numbers, you cannot say that the computer is objectively adding two numbers. It isn’t. The addition is merely an interpretation of a totally mechanistic and formal process that has been designed to be interpretable in such ways. It is analogous to reading a book. A book does not objectively contains words. It contains shaped blots of pigment on sheets of cellulose that have been assigned a conventional meaning in a culture and language. In other words, you being the words, the concepts, to the book. You bring the grammar. The book itself doesn’t have them.

So we must stop confusing figurative language with literal language. AI, LLMs, whatever can be very useful, but it isn’t even wrong to call them intelligent in any literal sense.

Re: People are just as bad as my LLMs

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love the posters that make fun of those corporate motivational posters. My favorite is: No one is as dumb as all of us. And they trained their PI* on that giant turd pile. * Pseudo Intelligence

I don't count LLMs as intelligent. To a certain degree they can be a component of intelligence, but I don't count an LLM on its own.

Well said.

If the database they're built with is well curated and the queries run against them make sense, then I imagine they could be a very, very good kind of local search engine.

But, training one on twitter and reddit comments? Yikes!

Re: People are just as bad as my LLMs

#103

> ...a lot of the safeguards and policy we have to manage humans own unreliability may serve us well in managing the unreliability of AI systems too. It seems like an incredibly bad outcome if we accept "AI" that's fundamentally flawed in a way similar to if not worse than humans and try to work around it rather than relegating it to unimportant tasks while we work towards a standard of intelligence we'd otherwise ex…

What is your measure of intelligence?

The ability to create novel solutions without a priori knowledge.

Re: People are just as bad as my LLMs

#105
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLMs don't emulate human behavior. They spit out chunks of words in an order that parrots some of their training data.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like we're splitting hairs here. > spits out chunks of words in an order that parrots some of their training data. So, if the data was created by humans then how is that different from "emulating human behavior?" Genuinely curious as this is my rough interpretation as well.

Humans don't write text in a stochastic manner. We have an idea, and we find words to compose to illustrate that idea.

An LLM has a stream of tokens, and it picks a next token based on the last stream. If you ask an LLM a yes/no question and demand an explanation, it doesn't start with the logical reasoning. It starts with "yes, because" or "no, because" and then it comes up with a "yes" or "no" reason to go with the tokens it spit out.

Re: People are just as bad as my LLMs

#106

> ...a lot of the safeguards and policy we have to manage humans own unreliability may serve us well in managing the unreliability of AI systems too. It seems like an incredibly bad outcome if we accept "AI" that's fundamentally flawed in a way similar to if not worse than humans and try to work around it rather than relegating it to unimportant tasks while we work towards a standard of intelligence we'd otherwise ex…

Amen.

People’s unawareness of their own personification bias with LLMs is wild.

Re: People are just as bad as my LLMs

#107
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your measure of intelligence?

The ability to create novel solutions without a priori knowledge.

> The ability to create novel solutions without a priori knowledge.

If you go by that then a lot of people (no offense) aren't intelligent. This includes many vastly successful or rich people.

So I disagree. There's a lot of ways to be intelligent. Not just the research and scientific type.

Re: People are just as bad as my LLMs

#108
post #107
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ability to create novel solutions without a priori knowledge.

> The ability to create novel solutions without a priori knowledge. If you go by that then a lot of people (no offense) aren't intelligent. This includes many vastly successful or rich people. So I disagree. There's a lot of ways to be intelligent. Not just the research and scientific type.

It takes novel solutions to walk down the street, interact with folks, dodge random incoming obstacles, respond to comments, and a bazillion other things almost everyone does all the time.

I probably agree that most people aren't engaged very often and even when they are they suck at being awesome but that really isn't the bar being mentioned here.

Re: People are just as bad as my LLMs

#109
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't count LLMs as intelligent. To a certain degree they can be a component of intelligence, but I don't count an LLM on its own.

Artificial intelligence is a generic term for a very broad field that has existed for like 50-70 years, depending on who you ask. 'Intelligence' isn't praise or endorsement. I think it's a succinct word that does the job at explaining what the goal here is. All the "Artificial intelligence? Hah, more like Bad Unintelligence, am I right???" takes just sound so corny to me.

> I think it's a succinct word that does the job at explaining what the goal here is.

Sure. If the goal is intelligence then LLMs fail. LLMs do not currently have the same intelligence as humans.

If a human being in front of me were to answer my question like an LLM does, I would think they are an overly confident parrot.

Not saying LLMs are bad, they are an incredible tool. Just not intelligence. Words matter.

Re: People are just as bad as my LLMs

#110

> ...a lot of the safeguards and policy we have to manage humans own unreliability may serve us well in managing the unreliability of AI systems too. It seems like an incredibly bad outcome if we accept "AI" that's fundamentally flawed in a way similar to if not worse than humans and try to work around it rather than relegating it to unimportant tasks while we work towards a standard of intelligence we'd otherwise ex…

I would say people are much, much worse.

Compare that to the weight we place on "experts" many of whom are hopelessly compromised or dragged by mountains of baggage.

Post reply on HN