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US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

ukrainetoday.org

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Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#971

Post by avmich »

riehwvfbk wrote: post #956
alephnerd wrote: post #945

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Dassault Rafale and F35 are meant for two different types of missions, and can't be viewed as competitors. Also F35s don't need to be ALIS enabled. Israel's Adir version of the F35 uses a separate set of parts and systems co-developed with France and India. Realistically, I don't see Ukraine getting the Dassault Rafale in the near future. They'll probably go with either the Gripen due to it's lower cost or the Eu…

These Ukrainian firms were remnants of the USSR aerospace program. The only reason they were in Ukraine is the USSR's policy of geographically distributing technological investment. And the only reason China benefitted so much was that these firms were in a state of complete abandonment and nobody in the dysfunctional government cared that the IP was sold off wholesale. There is nothing useful left.

Ukraine had the most technologically advanced rocket industry in late USSR and a pretty good aviation industry. Alumni of Ukrainian aerospace schools are showing up in Europe and Americas. We all witnessing the work of current technological pace in Ukrainian defence capabilities.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#972

Post by etherealG »

maxnevermind wrote: post #959
lucasyvas wrote: post #315

I find some of the comments I’ve read today in this thread somewhat enlightening - there is intelligent conversation about the capabilities of the American hardware and its software. The sophistication of the F-35 cannot be debated. But the rest of the world doesn’t trust the US anymore, so it doesn’t matter how good it is - people would gladly explore a worse product because they see it as lower risk. That’s the rea…

> We don’t want the US’ stuff anymore I wonder why this sentiment is not reflected in stock prices. It seems like major defense companies are close to ATH and keep growing. Not trying to argue, just wonder what is the reason for it.

Because stock prices and the people's interests they reflect only care about immediate returns that allow investors to then dump those returns into the next immediate returning investment again, to maximize return with no consideration for the overall health of the system they operate in. Capitalism. Long term health of the stock systems. Long term health of the underlying value they reflect. Nothing long term matters in a stock buy at all.

Why do you even ask this question, did the answer really not seem obvious, or was it rhetorical?

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#973

Post by keybored »

Waterluvian wrote: post #883
keybored wrote: post #786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing like a bully POTUS to bring out all the rose-colored glasses praising the US for something that it never was. Set in the context of a representative of neocolonial France speaking about “the free world”. I don’t understand the causality. Trump reaches a new low and the slogans about the benevolent past reaches a new, even more naive high. > I think there’s a fatal misconception among many Americans about wher…

I think Trump actually demonstrates just how wrong this perspective is. The U.S. cooperated with Canada to build cars together for generations. It’s a source of a lot of economic prosperity for both countries. And now the U.S. is threatening Canada with annexation while trying to destroy the current auto industry. I know there would be bickering about the details because everyone has their own mood on how warmongerin…

> I think Trump actually demonstrates just how wrong this perspective is.

It does not. I did not argue that America is not worse than before. I was clearly arguing against your premise that America has been wielding their military might with “cooperation over conquest”.

It was a straightforward question too.

> The U.S. cooperated with Canada to build cars together for generations. It’s a source of a lot of economic prosperity for both countries. And now the U.S. is threatening Canada with annexation while trying to destroy the current auto industry.

By the wars I was clearly referring to places like Latin America and the Middle East. Again, what’s the usual state of the US? At war, or at peace?

I know it hurts when it happens to you. Or your first-world friends. But that’s high school clique logic.[1] We’re talking about the country as a whole here, not just how it acts towards its former friends.

> I know there would be bickering about the details because everyone has their own mood on how warmongering the U.S. is, and to whom. But whatever you want to qualify the past as, the present is considerably and undeniably different in contrast.

Yes you preempted your statement with “bickering”. Too bad for you though that my question directly counters your claim.

How war-mongering of peaceful a nation is on the world stage is not a question of vibes and feels. Or how you subjectively view them based on how they treat “you”. It’s an objective question. No bickering needed.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#974

Post by ajmurmann »

maxnevermind wrote: post #959
lucasyvas wrote: post #315

I find some of the comments I’ve read today in this thread somewhat enlightening - there is intelligent conversation about the capabilities of the American hardware and its software. The sophistication of the F-35 cannot be debated. But the rest of the world doesn’t trust the US anymore, so it doesn’t matter how good it is - people would gladly explore a worse product because they see it as lower risk. That’s the rea…

> We don’t want the US’ stuff anymore I wonder why this sentiment is not reflected in stock prices. It seems like major defense companies are close to ATH and keep growing. Not trying to argue, just wonder what is the reason for it.

I think it's a combination of the market not believing the reality of the unprecedented policy shift and things only getting clearer the last ~2 weeks. If you look at that time frame, US defense stock is definitely suffering: https://finance.yahoo.com/sectors/industrials/aerospace-defe... especially if you compare this to Korean (https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/KDEF/) or European defense stock (https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/EUAD/ and https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/RNMBY/ for a longer perspective since EUAD is new). A large portion of that money could have gone to the US defense sector, but that's not an option anymore.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#976

Post by tankenmate »

maxnevermind wrote: post #959
lucasyvas wrote: post #315

I find some of the comments I’ve read today in this thread somewhat enlightening - there is intelligent conversation about the capabilities of the American hardware and its software. The sophistication of the F-35 cannot be debated. But the rest of the world doesn’t trust the US anymore, so it doesn’t matter how good it is - people would gladly explore a worse product because they see it as lower risk. That’s the rea…

> We don’t want the US’ stuff anymore I wonder why this sentiment is not reflected in stock prices. It seems like major defense companies are close to ATH and keep growing. Not trying to argue, just wonder what is the reason for it.

If you look at European arms manufacturers you'll see that their stock prices have gone up substantially (take Rheinmetall for example, up 169% YoY). But always remember, the stock price can be wrong, and when a downward correction comes to disabuse optimism it tends to be painful.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#977

Post by dgfitz »

etherealG wrote: post #972
maxnevermind wrote: post #959

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We don’t want the US’ stuff anymore I wonder why this sentiment is not reflected in stock prices. It seems like major defense companies are close to ATH and keep growing. Not trying to argue, just wonder what is the reason for it.

Because stock prices and the people's interests they reflect only care about immediate returns that allow investors to then dump those returns into the next immediate returning investment again, to maximize return with no consideration for the overall health of the system they operate in. Capitalism. Long term health of the stock systems. Long term health of the underlying value they reflect. Nothing long term matter…

What are you on about? I can ask an llm (which amusingly autocorrects to “lol”) or a search engine, stocks that retained and grew their value over decades. There’s lots.

Would you rather a centrally planned government where companies no longer care about their value? That, in a nutshell, is socialism.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#978

Post by dgfitz »

bjelkeman-again wrote: post #916
d4vlx wrote: post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he is referring to the F-35 only here. On military discussion forums it is the consensus that the F-35 is superior to everything else out there with the only exception being that the F-22 has superior air to air combat capabilities.

I have seen interviews with Norwegian pilots responsible for integrating F-35 into Norway’s airforce. Reading between the lines was that it seemed “complex”. I’m not site it is buggy, or overly complicated or what.

I heard a story the other day where kids tried to steal either a Bentley or a Porsche, and could not figure out how to get it into drive.

Is that a feature or a bug?

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#980

Post by deeviant »

geenat wrote: post #954
deeviant wrote: post #852

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not low cost, they cost nearly as much as an F35.

Cost per flight hour. Indeed though, F35 has become relatively inexpensive per unit, as intended.

Cost per flight hour doesn't make nearly as much sense to focus on as you think it does in an active war.
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