Layoffs Don't Work • Hacker News Board

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#701

Post by andrewlgood » Mon, Mar 10, 2025, 4:09 PM UTC

mym1990 wrote: post #610

andrewlgood wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this different than the manager who has spent years developing an employee - making sure they are getting the experiences they need to build a better career, hiring the right people to complement the team, fighting for bonuses and pay raises - only to have them quit to join the next company for a 10% raise. It is difficult to build a long-term culture when society seems to expect job hopping to rapidly advance…

Oh totally! I don't have that perspective from the manager as I am very much an IC, and I have 0 experience job hopping as well as I have basically been with the same company for most of my career. I would say, naively, that part of that difference comes down to job description. If its in a manager's job description to: "make sure they are getting the experiences they need to build a better career, hire the right peo…

Interestingly, I have never had a job description that actually said "make sure they are getting the experiences they need to build a better career, hire the right people to complement the team, fight for bonuses and pay raises." Rather they say something like 'effectively lead team to do...." To effectively lead the team, IMHO, one needs to "make sure they are getting the experiences they need to build a better career, hire the right people to complement the team, fight for bonuses and pay raises." I think this is true for all managers/leaders.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#702

Post by andrewlgood » Mon, Mar 10, 2025, 4:16 PM UTC

margalabargala wrote: post #617

andrewlgood wrote: post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually agreed with them that a disability makes life harder. I then pointed out other things that an individual did not choose can make life harder as well. As for bringing up children, I did make the leap that that is generally a big difference between younger employees and older employees.

> I do disagree with your assertion that “Life is much harder for some of us.” It sounds like what you think you wrote, is not in fact the words of yours that everybody has been reading.

Hmm.. I think we are talking past each other. In my initial comment I said "I do disagree with your assertion that “Life is much harder for some of us.” I still maintain that comment.

In my follow up comment I attempted to clarify my comment in response to giantg2's reply. "I do not have a disability (my wife may disagree) and I agree it makes life more challenging (wouldn’t be called a disability otherwise)." I completely agree a disability makes life more difficult. I simply added that it is not the only thing that makes life more difficult. All of these things need to be considered when making career/job decisions.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#703

Post by entropicdrifter » Mon, Mar 10, 2025, 4:24 PM UTC

nine_k wrote: post #464

al_borland wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked with a guy who left for more money, found out the grass wasn’t greener, and came crawling back. Then did it again. For some reason they hired him back a second time. When he quit the 3rd time I think that was the final bridge burned. I asked him about it and he said money was his singular metric for choosing a job, he was always looking, and would never stop.

I once left for a 50% raise, and once for a large chunk of equity in a promising startup (and being able to do early-stage formative work). But 10%?..

Yeah, I left a job where I loved the team and didn't mind the leadership too much for a 45% raise. Got lucky and the job I landed in was an even better fit for me.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#704

Post by abtinf » Mon, Mar 10, 2025, 4:27 PM UTC

dartos wrote: post #16

dustingetz wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

software development costs are out of control the whole industry is one big grift, there’s no accountability anywhere, 20% of the devs are doing 80% of the work, the business would instantly terminate the 80% for cause if they could only discern the difference, but they can’t, because the business side is also a big grift with the exact same problem all the way up to the founders recursively

Got news for you. It’s not the devs who are bloating development costs. It’s the layers of management making hour long meetings to discuss button placement. It’s the hours of retros, design meetings, and skip-levels designed to remove any personal investment or sense of ownership from everything. Since so few individuals are trusted with real decision making power, you need a lot more people to achieve some kind of c…

> because the business side is also a big grift with the exact same problem all the way up to the founders recursively

It’s like you stopped reading the comment halfway through.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#705

Post by deviantbit » Mon, Mar 10, 2025, 4:33 PM UTC

eikenberry wrote: post #697

deviantbit wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which dot com was that?

The first one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot-com_bubble

Which company?

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#706

Post by pickledoyster » Mon, Mar 10, 2025, 4:33 PM UTC

deviantbit wrote: post #334

This is a terrible opinion piece. Layoffs do work. Cutting hours does not work. I am always amazed how few people understand how a business operates. They think its a community organized event where there is unlimited revenue. There are a few basic accounting principles employees need to understand. It all revolves around Assets = Liabilities + Owner’s Equity. If you think otherwise, take a "Cost Accounting" course.…

>take a "Cost Accounting" course

do you (or anyone else) have a good course to recommend?

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#707

Post by margalabargala » Mon, Mar 10, 2025, 4:44 PM UTC

andrewlgood wrote: post #702

margalabargala wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do disagree with your assertion that “Life is much harder for some of us.” It sounds like what you think you wrote, is not in fact the words of yours that everybody has been reading.

Hmm.. I think we are talking past each other. In my initial comment I said "I do disagree with your assertion that “Life is much harder for some of us.” I still maintain that comment. In my follow up comment I attempted to clarify my comment in response to giantg2's reply. "I do not have a disability (my wife may disagree) and I agree it makes life more challenging (wouldn’t be called a disability otherwise)." I comp…

Let me take a step back here. You're contradicting yourself.

> In my initial comment I said "I do disagree with your assertion that “Life is much harder for some of us.” I still maintain that comment.

> I completely agree a disability makes life more difficult.

Do you not see how it's hard to square the first statement, with the second? You do not agree that life is much harder for some people, but you do agree that a disability makes life more difficult?

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#708

Post by SR2Z » Mon, Mar 10, 2025, 4:57 PM UTC

genewitch wrote: post #682

milesrout wrote: post #672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no such thing as what minimum wage should be "fairly". What is the minimum amount you should be able to pay someone an hour? Surely it is the amount where if you didn't, someone else would pay them more. There are many people who do jobs worth much less than $32/hour. That min wage would just make them illegal to employ. >You can't go off mcdonalds sandwiches, and you can't use the economic indicators that i…

> What is the minimum amount you should be able to pay someone an hour? Surely it is the amount where if you didn't, someone else would pay them more. A livable wage in the geographic jurisdiction they are in. Including stuff like transportation, healthcare, food, heat, housing, and insurance. Glad you asked. oh, the company can't compete without exploiting workers? oh well.

> A livable wage in the geographic jurisdiction they are in.

This is called the Iron Law of Wages. As its name implies, it's neither prescriptive nor pleasant - but it is guaranteed to be liveable.

> Including stuff like transportation, healthcare, food, heat, housing, and insurance.

The thing that trips people up is that the word "liveable" is a synonym for "subsistence," not "fullfilling." A wage that's only liveable would feel quite exploitative to most people.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#709

Post by kelnos » Mon, Mar 10, 2025, 5:03 PM UTC

Workaccount2 wrote: post #150

Real talk here, and I'm sorry for being "that guy" Why do tech workers get so wrapped around the axle of layoffs when most people are in a chronic state of tech job hopping? I know multiple people who have worked their entire career thus far without ever staying at a place for more than 3 or 4 years. Some no more than two. Tech job culture is practically a mono culture with "hop jobs" being a hallmark. From an employ…

Because of two things I can think of:

1. People like to control when they leave a company and join a new one. Most people will have a new job lined up, papers signed, before they put in their resignation at their old job. Getting laid off means a scramble to find something new. There's generally a big power imbalance between an employer and employees; the employee having the power to interview around and leave on their timetable is one of the less common cases where the employee has control over their own destiny.

2. While sometimes layoffs are isolated to a company, at other times (as we've seen over the past several years) it's indicative of an industry-wide trend. In this case, employees should definitely be worried about layoffs, as there well be a lot of their fellow workers competing for a smaller number of job opportunities.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#710

Post by nickd2001 » Mon, Mar 10, 2025, 5:04 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #493

suzzer99 wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the prospect of layoffs hits a little different when you're in your 50s. I have some non-techie friends in their 50s (sales, project management) who have been looking for a job for years. I've even heard third-hand about some good programmers in their 50s in LA in the same boat, although I don't know them personally. The last time I was looking for a job at age 48, I interviewed at a bunch of startups and only…

Yep. The subliminal message I'm getting from my current managers is that I should just be a good little disabled person and work as a Walmart greeter. It's turning into harassment at this point. Just all sorts of BS. Like telling me they are doing so much for me, when my ADA accommodation is weekly 1-on-1s with the manager and my tech lead. Is that really a lot? There are people without disabilities getting weekly 1-…

Such a subliminal message might be "constructive dismissal" and against disability legislation. With a good lawyer you might get a decent result if they ever did fire you? On the plus side, the fact they haven't fired you means either (a) they do actually value you performance even if they're claiming otherwise (perhaps to avoid paying more) or (b) they'd quite like to fire you but fear being sued big time if they did, so holding back. Either way, it'd seem you've got some power over them if you play your cards right. So, maybe try not to stress? ;) Yeah OK that's easier said than done....