They aren’t even useful the anti-air is too good for either side to use jets
Incorrect. The explanation is above.
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US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s
951–960 of 1001 posts
Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s
#952The article is written to give the reader the impression only the US can reprogram the jamming system and the comments seem to mostly be taking it at face value. In the very Forbes article the OP's article cites it links to info about this F-16 reprogramming effort[1], showing it was collaboration between the US/Norway/Denmark and that the US electronic warfare team wasn't familiar with the system, yet within two wee…
The article does state that america has decided not to provide support. Is this changed?
My comment was a reflection on discourse of the article here. The US has pulled support for providing further jamming reprogramming but way the article is written clearly was giving readers the impression the systems are US specific and only able to be programmed by the US.
Evidenced by most comments on HN at the time I posted not being about the software support per se being withdrawn but jumping off the premise it was only programmable by the US, with comment chains ranging from US software and supplied aircraft can't be trusted to going so far as talking about kill switches. This led to a very noisy, knee-jerky discussion based on an incorrect basis.
Quotes from the OP's article:
> Ukrainian pilots are not receiving updates, and the programs could soon become obsolete [...] France’s Mirage 2000s are equipped with their own powerful jammers, and the Americans are not involved in their programming.
> In the longer term, the Ukrainians could refit their F-16s with non-American electronic countermeasures [...] But that could take time and money...
Now contrast to the original Forbes citation which explained the US team doing the reprogramming wasn't even familiar with the system until being tasked to reprogram it for use in Ukraine, doing so in just two weeks and it being a multi-national effort with two European countries and an overseas facility.
Had the discourse began with that there would still be criticism of the government's decision, given the US was leading the reprogramming effort, but with clarity on what was occurring.
Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s
#953Earlier quoted context omitted.
Fascinating. What's with the US approach then? In general, it seems like lean forces tend to win. Afghanistan (twice) and Vietnam, for example. The Houthis as another example.
The Taliban/Mujahideen didn’t win per se, they just survived long enough for the foreign “empires” to lose interest. Vietnam wasn’t a conventional conflict either. If you’re willing to lose complete control of most of “your” country and sustain 10x higher casualties than your opponent you might have a chance, but that’s an extremely steep price to pay.
"That's the bet!"
Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s
#954The EU should buy - or even license produce - Swedish Saab Gripens to help the Ukrainians resist. Low cost, simple to operate, and specially designed to fight Russian aggression.
They are not low cost, they cost nearly as much as an F35.
Cost per flight hour.
Indeed though, F35 has become relatively inexpensive per unit, as intended.
Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s
#955I find some of the comments I’ve read today in this thread somewhat enlightening - there is intelligent conversation about the capabilities of the American hardware and its software. The sophistication of the F-35 cannot be debated. But the rest of the world doesn’t trust the US anymore, so it doesn’t matter how good it is - people would gladly explore a worse product because they see it as lower risk. That’s the rea…
I remember a similar analogy. No matter how hard you encrypt your device - if the border police holds a hammer to your head and forces you to unlock your phone, it’s as good as no encryption.
Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s
#956Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just 2 points missing. 1. The sale of planes like the F-35 is not just about the plane. It’s about the ability to be a nation with nuclear power by “renting” the US nuclear missile it can launch. People bought it mainly for that. The pilot and YouTuber ATE Chuet did a video talking about this if you want to dive into it. 2. The plane in itself is not as capable as say the Rafale. They tried to do way too many things…
The Dassault Rafale and F35 are meant for two different types of missions, and can't be viewed as competitors. Also F35s don't need to be ALIS enabled. Israel's Adir version of the F35 uses a separate set of parts and systems co-developed with France and India. Realistically, I don't see Ukraine getting the Dassault Rafale in the near future. They'll probably go with either the Gripen due to it's lower cost or the Eu…
These Ukrainian firms were remnants of the USSR aerospace program. The only reason they were in Ukraine is the USSR's policy of geographically distributing technological investment. And the only reason China benefitted so much was that these firms were in a state of complete abandonment and nobody in the dysfunctional government cared that the IP was sold off wholesale. There is nothing useful left.
Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s
#957Build trust for a hundred years. Then flush it down the drain in two months.
The States will never financially recover from this.
Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s
#958Earlier quoted context omitted.
Did Ukraine buy any F-16’s? No. They’ve benefitted from the generosity of the United States since 2017, and thanks in large part to that generosity they succeeded in the defense of Kyiv in 2022. Now it’s 2025 and the war has been stalemated for a couple of years. Does the United States have an open-ended obligation to continue supporting, at its own expense, yet another forever war on the other side of the world? The…
Interesting how the exact phrases "forever war," "open-ended obligation," and "taken for granted" keep coming up. Always in comments that lack critical thought or explanation, and never support these talking points and just take them as a given. It's an attempt to pretend that real USA screwups, like Vietnam and Iraq II, are at all similar to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. So, philwelch, please compare and contrast. W…
Sophist.
Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s
#959I find some of the comments I’ve read today in this thread somewhat enlightening - there is intelligent conversation about the capabilities of the American hardware and its software. The sophistication of the F-35 cannot be debated. But the rest of the world doesn’t trust the US anymore, so it doesn’t matter how good it is - people would gladly explore a worse product because they see it as lower risk. That’s the rea…
> We don’t want the US’ stuff anymore
I wonder why this sentiment is not reflected in stock prices. It seems like major defense companies are close to ATH and keep growing. Not trying to argue, just wonder what is the reason for it.
Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s
#960Earlier quoted context omitted.
Did Ukraine buy any F-16’s? No. They’ve benefitted from the generosity of the United States since 2017, and thanks in large part to that generosity they succeeded in the defense of Kyiv in 2022. Now it’s 2025 and the war has been stalemated for a couple of years. Does the United States have an open-ended obligation to continue supporting, at its own expense, yet another forever war on the other side of the world? The…
F-16 arrived from Netherlands as USA was unwilling to supply them. About defense of Kyiv, it has nothing to do with usa generosity and everything to do with creativity and a lot of luck. i'll suggest to read about how it was managed. there is a 50 pager released by uk miliary on this topic
> F-16 arrived from Netherlands as USA was unwilling to supply them.
Even more to my point then. If it wasn’t even the United States that gave them free fighter jets but a third country, how exactly did the US get stuck with an obligation to continue providing support?
> About defense of Kyiv, it has nothing to do with usa generosity
The United States provided six years of military aid to Ukraine prior to the 2022 invasion. If none of that aid actually helped them, I guess it was all wasted and there’s no problem discontinuing it.