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Apple Exclaves

randomaugustine.medium.com

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Re: Apple Exclaves

#131

Post by als0 »

transpute wrote: post #5

> SK runs on the same high speed application processors as XNU/iOS. To make this possible, additional processor privilege levels are required — likely supported by virtualization extensions Recent Apple phone and laptop SoCs include hardware support for nested virtualization, including the M4 iPad Pro where an exclave is used for the camera LED. Hopefully the next revision of the Apple Platform Security guide will co…

> 150+ TrustZone CVEs, https://www.cve.org/CVERecord/SearchResults?query=trustzone

It’s important to note that most of those CVEs are to do with vulnerable software that manufacturers put in the TrustZone protected environment (many of which are garbage). There are very few vulnerabilities reported about the hardware itself.

Re: Apple Exclaves

#132

Post by reaperducer »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #104
eleveriven wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tim definitely carries that torch in his own way, but there was something about Steve's presence that made everything feel more… human? Less corporate? Hard to put into words, but yeah, I miss him too. Thanks for sharing that video.

One of the things about Tim Cook, that people don’t really talk about (which, IMO, is appropriate), is that he’s openly gay. Most times, this doesn’t mean anything, but there’s very few demographics that understand the need for privacy and data protection, better than gay folks. Of course, he’s still at the whim of the Board, and he’s no spring chicken, so there’s no guarantee that his successor would feel the same,…

One of the things about Tim Cook, that people don’t really talk about (which, IMO, is appropriate), is that he’s openly gay.

Most times, this doesn’t mean anything, but there’s very few demographics that understand the need for privacy and data protection, better than gay folks.

I used to think this, too. His recent ring-kissing antics have changed my mind. He, too, can be bought for a price.

You don't write a check for a million dollars to a person who is actively trying to decimate the gay community and still get to wear the rainbow flag.

Re: Apple Exclaves

#133

Post by brookst »

alfiedotwtf wrote: post #43
saagarjha wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An exclave isn’t hardware, it’s an isolated piece of software that deals with a certain sensitive operation that you don’t want the kernel to have access to. So if you exploit it, then yes you have access to something that the kernel doesn’t–but that’s the point, because the goal is if you exploit the kernel you shouldn’t get access to that.

If it’s all in software but the kernel has lower privileges, I’m curious how they’ll be able to update it? And if there is an API to update via the kernel, what’s stopping a push via a malicious source pretending to be Apple?

Less than entirely confident stab (someone please correct if I get this wrong):

- Exclave exposes a small set of functions that kernel may call for sensitive operations - One of those is “update exclave”. The input to this is a blob signed with Apple’s private key. - Exclave verifies signature, so a compromised kernel and push a malicious update

How the exclave gets Apple’s public key is a little opaque to me. One way would be to have the exclave have its own (per device or per global version) private key, but client side private keys are very high risk.

Alternatively, perhaps some elaborate set of baked-in public keys for Apple and a way to validate a CRL?

Re: Apple Exclaves

#134

Post by jandrewrogers »

api wrote: post #117

We could have avoided so much hardware and OS complexity if we'd instead (mostly) discarded the idea of shipping and running compiled code directly on the hardware. TL;DR: we are doing things in hardware that ought to be done in software, and we're giving software too close to metal access. User mode should be something like the JVM, but more language-neutral, something based around WASM for example. The runtime for…

So your solution is to nerf the computer in terms of both performance and functionality? There is a lot of software that cannot be properly written without being very close to the metal e.g. database kernels.

Re: Apple Exclaves

#135

Post by neom »

eecc wrote: post #101
orangepanda wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pancreatic cancer is known for being incurable, even in the best of circumstances, early diagnose or not. Having witnessed a family member go through the same thing, I understand Jobs's reaction of trying literally anything else.

Sorry for your loss. Though SJ "He was diagnosed with insulinoma, which unlike other pancreatic cancers, is curable and can be treated with surgery." see: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-16157142#:~:text=He%20wa...

Well, given apparently the posts in this thread reveal me to be an "manic crazy person" (or such I inferred) - I suppose I'll add to it then by saying: I too have read and understood Yogācārabhūmi-Śāstra. I hadn't thought much about it till today, but, I suspect, will do as Steve did. :) :)

Re: Apple Exclaves

#136

Post by lukifer »

brookst wrote: post #121
lordofgibbons wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course, he’s still at the whim of the Board, and he’s no spring chicken, so there’s no guarantee that his successor would feel the same At the risk of sounding like Richard Stallman, that exactly is the problem with buying into such walled-prison ecosystem of devices. You're at the mercy of Apple pushing an update that can unilaterally take away your privacy and rights. They already do that with sending hashes o…

Sure, and every time you eat at a restaurant they could poison you. This is mainly a concern if you are a high value target likely to be the first person poisoned. For most of us, that’s not true, and a formerly good actor turning evil would be noticed long before it came our turn. So there’s the idealist “I can’t be sure my favorite restaurant won’t poison me today, so I’m never eating there again”, and the pragmati…

The better analogy might be, "when the morality police call the restaurant, they divulge which table you sit at every day during lunch". And it's also not clear that it would be noticed: national security letters, gag orders, parallel construction, etc.

It's just another principal-agent problem, and I agree that a fully self-sovereign life, with no dependence on trust or agents, is an unrealizable ideal; and, that a decent solution (while not perfect) is reputation stake and aligned incentives, check and check in Apple's case. I too think Cook is sincere, and I trust them as far as I can throw their products, which is to say, a little. (The Apple Tax is so they don't have to rely on a sketchy big-data business model.)

That said, computing and InfoSec have some unique contours, in a way that trusting a mechanic or a lawyer does not. Those can have catastrophic failure modes as well (crashing from a shoddy repair, getting sued based on bad legal advice), but they aren't systemic to society, and have lower switching costs.

And I ultimately think it's a false choice. When it comes to meatspace security, it's possible to have trusted and accountable public institutions, and allow citizens to have some means for self-sovereignty (2A, locked doors). It would be foolish to rely only on one or the other, either as a society or an individual.

So I'm deeply grateful for the Stallman types, pushing forward the capacity for self-sovereignty. Even if it doesn't currently meet my needs from a risk/benefit tradeoff, I still benefit from the ecosystem, and its BATNA, and I look forward to the day I sever my dependence on Apple's ecosystem, whether or not they betray my trust.

Re: Apple Exclaves

#137

Post by -__---____-ZXyw »

neom wrote: post #9

I think Steve truly believed at his core, very simply: your laptop is your diary, and they have a responsibility to that. I don't think Tim would be CEO if he didn't believe what Steve did. It's so weird, but I really miss Steve. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij-jlF98SzA

> It's so weird, but I really miss Steve.

When I see the sincere sentiment sometimes expressed towards Jobs, I wonder if something similar is being tapped into when people - often tech people - use and experience LLMs.

To put it a bit bluntly, it almost feels like there's a mystical or religious element to it. As if we desperately want there to be miracles, and oracles, and god-like, caring men who can provide us with beautiful products, and rituals, and a future where everything is sleek and bountiful and timeless. As if some spiritual "hole" were being filled.

I don't mean to disparage anyone who feels fondly towards Jobs or LLMs, I'm merely sharing an observation of mine.

Re: Apple Exclaves

#138

Post by TheNewsIsHere »

andrewcl wrote: post #128
lambdaone wrote: post #114

I'm quite surprised that they use a secure exclave to control the physical camera LED - this is absolutely massive overengineering to do something very simple. A tiny bit of hardwired dedicated logic integrated into the camera module would be more than adequate to do this - just gating of either the digital I/O or the power to the camera, and a pulse-stretcher so the LED goes on for at least a few seconds each time t…

You have to wonder if it is over engineering, or a resolution for something they've discovered from shipping so many phones. I wouldn't think of the camera as a security vector, but maybe Apple thinks it is?

The camera and mic are generally regarded as security sensitive because of the possibility that they can be used to surveil. That’s why it’s a selling point to have physical hardware or hardware-bound controls or indicators that can’t be bypassed by the OS.

Re: Apple Exclaves

#139

Post by JadeNB »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #126
lordofgibbons wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course, he’s still at the whim of the Board, and he’s no spring chicken, so there’s no guarantee that his successor would feel the same At the risk of sounding like Richard Stallman, that exactly is the problem with buying into such walled-prison ecosystem of devices. You're at the mercy of Apple pushing an update that can unilaterally take away your privacy and rights. They already do that with sending hashes o…

Stallman is a brilliant and passionate chap, but he's also a lifelong academic, and has very different life priorities than people that need to make a living at shipping things. He's one end of the spectrum, and NSO is at the other end. The best place is somewhere in the middle.

> NSO is at the other end.

I thought I was familiar with the really big players in the privacy/anti-privacy space, but I don't know this one. What is NSO? These guys https://www.nsogroup.com/ ?

Re: Apple Exclaves

#140

Post by mrud »

lambdaone wrote: post #114

I'm quite surprised that they use a secure exclave to control the physical camera LED - this is absolutely massive overengineering to do something very simple. A tiny bit of hardwired dedicated logic integrated into the camera module would be more than adequate to do this - just gating of either the digital I/O or the power to the camera, and a pulse-stretcher so the LED goes on for at least a few seconds each time t…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42260379 has more details on some of the history.
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