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Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

reuters.com

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Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#161

Post by neuronic »

First to clear up my bias: Tesla is an overvalued scam company by a fascist techno-oligarch. I hope we will boycott this company in Europe just based on Elon Musk behaviour alone. This is my political opinion. With that out of the way...

My opinion as a driver is that these cars deliver far less value for the price than other EVs. I have driven Model 3 and Model Y so far and both experiences have been very mixed.

- I enjoyed the responsiveness and on-the-road feel of the car for the most part which is entirely crippled by feelings of a cheap suspension and weird steering. The cars feel like racing a plastics car barely holding it together, gives me vibes of cheap Korean cars back in the 2000s.

- I enjoy the clean interior design and wide views which are again crippled by low quality materials typically found in budget cars and low quality, cost-cutting material processing.

- Wtf is that UX? Everything hidden in weird submenus in a central touchscreen. The OS has been designed by engineers rather than UX professionals and they seem to never have driven a car other than on empty, sunny 20mph roads or a parking lot.

- The blinking UX is terrible and it's clear that this is the result of cost-cutting.

- Charging is the best experience among EVs. Others need to catch up, still in 2025...

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#162

Post by tromp »

SkyPuncher wrote: post #116
elif wrote: post #86

Having road tripped from Florida to Washington and back in a big circle around the country, it is my firm belief that every single person complaining about the range estimates in a Tesla is speeding. By altering my driving style, I can get more range than the estimate. It's extremely predictable and accurate, to the point where I can notice the power drain from the self driving computers/cameras, arrive at the next s…

When you understand how the EPA actually test this, it makes sense. "Highway" isn't anything like what most people think it is. It's not cruising at 75mph with no traffic on a major interstate. It's more like busy country road driving. > The "highway" program, on the other hand, is created to emulate rural and interstate freeway driving with a warmed-up engine, making no stops (both of which ensure maximum fuel econo…

> force of drag grows exponentially with speed

No, it grows only polynomially [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_equation

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#163

Post by smcin »

ozim wrote: post #142
LeoPanthera wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sold my Tesla after 4 years, because I refused to own it out of warranty. No longer being associated with Musk is a bonus. During the 4 years, it needed servicing (for actual faults, not for maintenance) 13 times. 4 of those times were "Car is dead" and it had to be towed. To book service, you have to use the app. There's no phone number. You pick a date which is usually at least a week in advance, type in what's w…

To be fair i don’t think there is a business where I can make an appointment in the same week. I have ICE and getting basic oil change must be week in advance even when I call, I never get “we can book you tomorrow”. Heck gettin haircut in my area they have calendars blocked so you have to plan with a week in advance. Super annoying as I have a simple cut and most of time it can be done in 15mins. Ok washing down cut…

What on earth do you mean???

AAA is exactly that business: call-out roadside assistance for flat/dead batteries, breakdowns, tows etc. They have 65 million members in North America. Response time varies greatly by day/time-of-day/your location/dispatching company, traffic but typically https://mwg.aaa.com/ (And T-Mobile was even giving free AAA membership in 2024.)

Also look at this discussion on r/TeslaModelY "Do you still need AAA?" comparing reliability and response times: https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModelY/comments/17ju1z2/do_you...

Basic oil change is typically while-you-wait in non-peak hours; where on earth do you live? some 'services desert'? I've even gotten while-you-wait smog testing done within 45min out-the-door.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#164

Post by londons_explore »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #41
londons_explore wrote: post #5

The article really focusses on range loss when cold, but as far as I can see that isn't really true. The reality is there is lots of range loss when using the cabin heater, which obviously one is most likely to do when cold. All modern Tesla's use heat pumps for cabin heating, which ~halves the range loss, but it's still substantial.

If I’m not mistaken some or all also have battery heaters that consume a lot of energy.

With coolant loops, the heat produced by the inverter and motor is sufficient for battery heating in almost all climates and driving conditions.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#165

Post by Gasp0de »

SkyPuncher wrote: post #116
elif wrote: post #86

Having road tripped from Florida to Washington and back in a big circle around the country, it is my firm belief that every single person complaining about the range estimates in a Tesla is speeding. By altering my driving style, I can get more range than the estimate. It's extremely predictable and accurate, to the point where I can notice the power drain from the self driving computers/cameras, arrive at the next s…

When you understand how the EPA actually test this, it makes sense. "Highway" isn't anything like what most people think it is. It's not cruising at 75mph with no traffic on a major interstate. It's more like busy country road driving. > The "highway" program, on the other hand, is created to emulate rural and interstate freeway driving with a warmed-up engine, making no stops (both of which ensure maximum fuel econo…

As a German, I love how you call 75mph speeding. There is a huge discussion going on in Germany of introducing a 80mph speed limit on the highway and many people claim that that does not work for them as they regularly drive 100mph average.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#166

Post by Gasp0de »

jfengel wrote: post #8
londons_explore wrote: post #5

The article really focusses on range loss when cold, but as far as I can see that isn't really true. The reality is there is lots of range loss when using the cabin heater, which obviously one is most likely to do when cold. All modern Tesla's use heat pumps for cabin heating, which ~halves the range loss, but it's still substantial.

Does the heater really use all that much energy? A home space heater is something on the order of 1 kW, which is a fraction of a percent of what is needed to move the car.

Your math is so far off, it isn't even on this planet anymore. In what world does an EV use more than 100kW? It's closer to 20kWh per 100km, so about 20kW on the highway probably. That would make your heater be 5%, not a fraction of a percent.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#167

Post by jajko »

YZF wrote: post #125
acchow wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the gradient is steep enough then you would not be recouping most of the energy going back downhill because your brakes will be burning off the energy. Uphill and downhills is a combination where the estimated range might be thrown off entirely, depending on situation. Regardless, even with a small gradient, the kinetic energy can never need 100% converted back into stored energy into the battery. There will alway…

It'd have to be really steep. Regenerative braking on a model 3 is pretty aggressive. You don't even use the brakes in normal driving. If you're starting off too cold that can be an issue though. I've driven in big mountains (Canada, BC) and while you're definitely using a lot more power on your way up you make up for it on the other side. I have worried about not making it to the top though (but it worked out fine f…

Had a recent talk with a colleague who owns one of earlier model S on exactly this. He often goes skiing up to Verbier in the Swiss alps, so similar situation and cold.

He definitely burns through the battery much quicker in mountains, and going down it recoups just a small fraction of energy spent going up. Also cold messes up the numbers pretty significantly, I think he mentioned 10-15% of battery consumed standing still each full day in freezing temperatures (he told me battery keeps itself warm).

Pushing up 1,5 tonnes (or 2+ in tesla's case) of our ICE car can burn up any fuel very fast in relatively short distance. I've estimated that our current petrol and previous (otherwise very efficient) diesel burn around 1/4 to 1/3 of the fuel tank on each 1000m of altitude gained.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#168

Post by KAMSPioneer »

SkyPuncher wrote: post #116
elif wrote: post #86

Having road tripped from Florida to Washington and back in a big circle around the country, it is my firm belief that every single person complaining about the range estimates in a Tesla is speeding. By altering my driving style, I can get more range than the estimate. It's extremely predictable and accurate, to the point where I can notice the power drain from the self driving computers/cameras, arrive at the next s…

When you understand how the EPA actually test this, it makes sense. "Highway" isn't anything like what most people think it is. It's not cruising at 75mph with no traffic on a major interstate. It's more like busy country road driving. > The "highway" program, on the other hand, is created to emulate rural and interstate freeway driving with a warmed-up engine, making no stops (both of which ensure maximum fuel econo…

I'm sorry but this is a pet peeve of mine: drag force does not scale exponentially with velocity, it scales with the square of velocity. Your point stands, of course.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#169

Post by jfim »

ozim wrote: post #142
LeoPanthera wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sold my Tesla after 4 years, because I refused to own it out of warranty. No longer being associated with Musk is a bonus. During the 4 years, it needed servicing (for actual faults, not for maintenance) 13 times. 4 of those times were "Car is dead" and it had to be towed. To book service, you have to use the app. There's no phone number. You pick a date which is usually at least a week in advance, type in what's w…

To be fair i don’t think there is a business where I can make an appointment in the same week. I have ICE and getting basic oil change must be week in advance even when I call, I never get “we can book you tomorrow”. Heck gettin haircut in my area they have calendars blocked so you have to plan with a week in advance. Super annoying as I have a simple cut and most of time it can be done in 15mins. Ok washing down cut…

Out of curiosity, where do you get your oil change done?

The local mechanic here can do it the same day, and they're next to a restaurant. Last time I did an oil change and tire rotation I just grabbed lunch while they worked on it.

The dealership for my car is perpetually booked though, and my experience reflects what you mentioned.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#170

Post by sksrbWgbfK »

mattbillenstein wrote: post #152
LeoPanthera wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sold my Tesla after 4 years, because I refused to own it out of warranty. No longer being associated with Musk is a bonus. During the 4 years, it needed servicing (for actual faults, not for maintenance) 13 times. 4 of those times were "Car is dead" and it had to be towed. To book service, you have to use the app. There's no phone number. You pick a date which is usually at least a week in advance, type in what's w…

Wow, that is crazy. I've come to think of cars, and maybe other big purchases, as you're purchasing a culture; the company that made it and will service it - it's why Toyota is so highly regarded. I own a 20yo Toyota Tacoma - and it's making more frequent shop visits now; and there are some good independent shops, but the Toyota guys really do a good job and over-communicate what's going on when they have your vehicl…

The first time I got a Toyota, I brought it for regular maintenance and they cleaned my car at the end. I was shocked because I never experienced this before, but the technician told me it was free and standard procedure.

At least they understood that if you see clean cars around you when you drive, you're more likely to buy the brand later, and keep happy clients.

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