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Layoffs Don't Work

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Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#661

Post by genewitch »

ltbarcly3 wrote: post #200
WalterBright wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm unclear what employers are deriving from this exercise at this point It filters out the complete frauds. Yes, there are people who know all the right things to say in a job interview, but cannot code at all. If you hire one of them, it takes a bit to find out they cannot code, and a bit longer to fire them, so you're out $$$$ paying their salaries for nothing. For example, a recruiter I know will ask a tech can…

I have done probably 500 to 1000 tech screens for big tech companies (as the interviewer) and this is completely true. I have interviewed many people employed in tech as programmers for their entire career and they can't code. I don't meen leetcode, I mean they get confused trying to write brute force substring search. The nested for loop seems to be too complex for them to keep in their head all at once. I have had…

You just reminded me I said it on a programming interview for Java one time and my friend was giving them the Fizzbuzz test.

And, and having to explain everything, well, this person had never heard of it. And, and for the more, didn't know what modulo was, like, how do you, how do you say you know Java?

I suck at programming but I could bang out 100% of the things mentioned in this thread. In like four languages, including FORTRAN.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#662

Post by genewitch »

jamesfinlayson wrote: post #592
jjav wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have interviewed many people employed in tech as programmers for their entire career and they can't code. Think about this contradictory statement for a while. Can it actually be true? Or is there something else going on? If the interviewee has nothing but sub-1yr stints on their resume, perpetually getting fired before vesting at any company, then yes, it's very possible they actually can't code and just fake it…

I thought that too until we had a guy start two years ago that interviewed well and answered questions like he knew what he was talking about but then when he started, one of his first questions was how to figure what endpoint was being called by a website (as obvious as looking at your browser's Network tab, or browsing the website's source to find the endpoint). Not long after that he had to clear a couple more val…

Why would you clear the cache if it's not cached?

Or is this ironic?

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#663

Post by genewitch »

ltbarcly3 wrote: post #575
gjm11 wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elsewhere in this thread there is literally an example of someone who, by their own description, worked at a FAANG company for some years getting good performance reviews, has enough interview experience that even if they couldn't generally code their way out of a paper bag they were surely good at interview-question coding, ... and, under pressure from a pushy interviewer, completely failed to do a straightforward c…

The solution to the problem in question is about 9 lines of very simple code. In a 45 minute interview, that is 5 minutes per line available. It's about 1 character every 40 seconds. I think anyone can get flustered and mess up. It's possible for someone, on a bad day, lack of sleep, hung over, experiencing an anxiety attack to mess this up, but it's really really a stretch. This is a VERY EASY task, and if someone h…

((What happens) if you are missing a close paren?

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#664

Post by throwaway2037 »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #150

Real talk here, and I'm sorry for being "that guy" Why do tech workers get so wrapped around the axle of layoffs when most people are in a chronic state of tech job hopping? I know multiple people who have worked their entire career thus far without ever staying at a place for more than 3 or 4 years. Some no more than two. Tech job culture is practically a mono culture with "hop jobs" being a hallmark. From an employ…

I don't work in Silicon Valley, nor pure tech, but in many industries, the quickest way to climb titles and pay is to move to a new firm. Plus you can avoid the friction of asking for a better title or pay as your current firm. (And getting a "no" is horrible for your self-esteem.) Can you blame these people for leaving a job for better title/pay? I cannot. Better: I would expect HN to applause! "Stick it to the man!"

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#665

Post by guappa »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #385
no_wizard wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Government employment is 95% the time completely divorced from reality This is a pretty big claim to make without any evidence to support it. The government, whether it be state, local, county federal etc. does in have a different pace and certainly like with any big organizations can have issues such as waste, but to say it’s completely divorced from reality , especially in context of somehow private (as in not go…

Private companies generally need to be efficient and make money or go out of business. VC funded startups are a VERY small percentage of jobs compared to ALL private company employees. But, sure, there is much shenanigans there. Public companies can play tons of games as well - but the vast majority of people employed at public companies are at relatively efficient and profitable companies. Government services are un…

> Private companies generally need to be efficient and make money or go out of business.

It seems you've never worked at a private company and just believe the invisible hand fairy tale?

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#666

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

shortrounddev2 wrote: post #266
Workaccount2 wrote: post #150

Real talk here, and I'm sorry for being "that guy" Why do tech workers get so wrapped around the axle of layoffs when most people are in a chronic state of tech job hopping? I know multiple people who have worked their entire career thus far without ever staying at a place for more than 3 or 4 years. Some no more than two. Tech job culture is practically a mono culture with "hop jobs" being a hallmark. From an employ…

I think many people at big tech companies like Facebook truly drank the koolaid there, and when they got laid off it laid bare that the companies they worked at were just companies. Facebook, Google, Amazon, etc are no better than Microsoft, IBM, Oracle, or whatever other 20th century company they had come to represent the answer to. I think a LOT of people had really tied their identities up in being a big tech empl…

To be fair, Facebook was a really really great place to work for the five years I was there. Given that, it's not surprising that people got comfortable.

Like, I've gone from 200 connections at FB to less than 100 over the years of layoffs.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#667

Post by rightbyte »

cjaackie wrote: post #144
alphazard wrote: post #98

There is a theory about large complex systems which seems to be true in biology and maybe applies here. Intentional downsizing during times of stress works when it preferentially targets defective or dysfunctional components of the larger system. The system improves because the worst parts were removed. Layoffs don't help companies unless they can reliably remove the worst parts. At most large public companies, the c…

Could I be missing something, but are you seriously promoting layoffs? You must be trolling by using twitter as functional example of why they work? I think sometimes I miss sarcastic tones and I really hope i did with this one

I think Twitter is a bad example to use, since so much other "direction changes" could arguably shadow the reduction in workforce.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#668

Post by rightbyte »

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #204
logsr wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Large tech companies are inefficient and have very poor engineering productivity but this is largely for systemic reasons. They definitely do not have any mechanism for identifying high performers. The basic problem they face is that they pay a fixed wage for complete IP ownership (horrible deal) and so they intentionally do not measure and reward actual performance because they do not want to compensate high perform…

> they intentionally do not measure and reward actual performance because they do not want to compensate high performers based on the value they create. Ten years ago, an oft-repeated quote: “you’re not paid what you’re worth, but for the value you create.” In light of that, is the argument that performance is institutionally obscured so that devs don’t realize how much leverage they really have? I can see traces of…

If you work in an org the share of the success of something that you could claim is really abstract. In some sense the cleaning lady can put claims on "my" success.

Most stuff I have done would probably be worthless without the sale people and customer relations in place. Like 0$ value.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#669

Post by DanielHB »

luckylion wrote: post #121
DanielHB wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe where most countries are notoriously hard to fire people they don't do layoffs like that "just to be safe", they instead just cut-back on hiring more people during though times. It has an impact of morale, but not nearly as bad I imagine. I wonder if that is one of the reasons why Europe companies tend to be smaller companies, while US tend to be bigger. Expansion is easier when you can fire at any time, sm…

I don't know whether it's a reason for size ("one market" isn't just about taxes, it's also about culture and language, and that's more different in the EU than the US), but it definitely makes companies more risk-averse towards expansion and disadvantages people with non-average backgrounds. The risk your CV suggests (e.g. mental health, unemployment, non-traditional career) gets multiplied if it's close to impossib…

Personally I think the model in Brazil is the best one, you can be fired at any time but you always get severance with the value of the severance dictated by how long you been at the company (I think it was 1 month of salary per year of tenure).

It does create some problems but not nearly as bad.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#670

Post by PeterStuer »

int_19h wrote: post #545
PeterStuer wrote: post #518

Most places I've seen could cut 50-80% of people and maintain or even grow output. Will they cut the right 50-80%? Chances are close to nill. And the article is right that layoffs curb morale. Then again, what hurts morale even more, especialy for your true performers, is not laying of the incompetent, the 0 net contribution carreer ladder climbers or the pfiepdom pyramid seat fillers and the bloated 'management supp…

What hurts morale the most is when layoffs affect teams and people who are clearly not "underperforming". I've seen some star devs getting swiped up into mass layoffs, and that is incredibly demoralizing because it hammers home the point that it doesn't actually matter how good you are at your job, how much esteem you have with colleagues etc. Not even your manager will be able to help you if the entire team gets can…

Fully agree with you on the impact of firing competent people. I think you severely underestimate the impact of not firing or even promoting the incompetent or the zero or negative contributers.
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