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Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

reuters.com

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Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#91

Tesla advertises 350+ miles on its cars. I’d bet money that the cars can’t do 300 in normal weather, normal driving conditions without the AC/heater on, on a straight road with no elevation gain. These are the things they blame when they say EPA estimates are different becase blah blah… (I own a Tesla)

You can review claims from some YTers here[0]. But I've copied the params and results over for the Model 3. They also have tons of other cars tested in similar params[1].

  Testing procedure:  
  - Tire pressure set to manufacturer recommendation   
  - DCFC to 100% SoC to ensure optimal battery temperature   
  - Most energy efficient drive setting   
  - Climate control set between 68-72 on most eco-friendly mode that still allows A/C, on lowest auto fan setting   
  - 70 mph constant GPS-verified speed with gentle acceleration to reach speed  
  - Avoid drafting trucks or other vehicles   
  - Stay on highway at 70 mph constant for as long as possible, until power is cut or low single digit SoC  
  - Use frontage roads at low SoC, try to maintain 55+ mph until stated remaining range depleted  
  - Arrive at charger just as car crosses 0-1 miles remaining and 0% SoC  
  Route:  
  - Drive from Wellington, CO up I-25 to Cheyenne, WY. Then east on I-80 into Nebraska   
  - Route ensures minimal elevation impact, and any wind is documented. Wind typically blows easterly, so the long stretch along I-80 allows for headwind to become tailwind at turnaround.  


 Tesla Model 3 Performance:   
    EPA: 303 mi  
    Actual: 288 mi / 265 Wh/mi  
   
 Tesla Model 3 LR AWD Panasonic:   
    EPA: 341  mi  
    Actual: 365 mi / 215 Wh/mi  
   
 Tesla Model 3 SR RWD LFP:  
    EPA: 272 mi  
    Actual: 277 mi / 213 Wh/mi  
   
 Tesla Model 3 LR AWD LG:   
    EPA: 305 mi  
    Actual: 308 mi / 249 Wh/mi  
   
 Tesla Model 3 LR RWD:   
    EPA: 363 mi  
    Actual: 386 mi / 206 Wh/mi  
[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmn7gpuAp9E

[1]: https://outofspecstudios.com/70-mph-range

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do gas cars get advertised mileage on steep hills? I don't believe so.

Electric cars being much, much heavier than petrol cars do have a disadvantage going uphill. I'd still reckon that range estimates should ignore these extreme edge cases, though.

> Electric cars being much, much heavier than petrol cars

This is one of those comments that continues to come up but has never added up. Certainly if you are comparing a Tesla compared to a compact or a Euro version of a compact. Absolutely there is a weight difference. The problem is if you did a like for like comparison..a Model Y is the same Weight as an X3. A Model 3 is a couple hundred pounds heavier than a Toyota Camry.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#93

The article really focusses on range loss when cold, but as far as I can see that isn't really true. The reality is there is lots of range loss when using the cabin heater, which obviously one is most likely to do when cold. All modern Tesla's use heat pumps for cabin heating, which ~halves the range loss, but it's still substantial.

Considering this, plus the fact that it's just annoying, it's strange that they don't let you turn the heated steering wheel or seat on without turning the heater on. It's literally not permitted. I have to work around it by setting the fan to 1 manually every time.

Unless you are in some wildly different version of a Tesla. My '22 Model Y does not have this characteristic. I almost all the time have my seat and wheel heat on without climate control on. I am guessing you are not using the seat/wheel option pinned to the bottom of the UI and going into the climate control.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#94
post #8

The article really focusses on range loss when cold, but as far as I can see that isn't really true. The reality is there is lots of range loss when using the cabin heater, which obviously one is most likely to do when cold. All modern Tesla's use heat pumps for cabin heating, which ~halves the range loss, but it's still substantial.

Does the heater really use all that much energy? A home space heater is something on the order of 1 kW, which is a fraction of a percent of what is needed to move the car.

> A home space heater is something on the order of 1 kW,

2kW in the civilized world.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#95
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If so, they'll get much of the energy expended going uphill back on the downhills, thanks to regenerative braking.

In the Tesla Semi announcement, they showed pretty impressive data on exactly that. Here's a shot of the graph and some data: https://kilowatt.page/tesla-semi-regen-roundtrip-efficiency-... Of course, this is from Tesla, and they famously puff up everything.. but I would expect even if not as good as claimed here, for the downhill part to certainly help a lot still. What may not help is if they fully charge at work a…

Neither are Teslas, but our cars range from getting 10%-33% back when going back down a mountain (curves, no traffic, avoiding using the brake pads or switching between charge/discharge on the throttle).

The results they report are incomparable for two reasons:

- straight line steep mountain roads don’t exist. On curvy roads (like mine) they’d need to repeatedly round trip energy to and from the battery, and that’s going to eat about 5% each time.

- the article claims going up and down the mountain uses as much energy as driving one mile. During the ascend/descend they drive 500 miles. The wind resistance for one mile flat and one mile on the mountain should be comparable, so their 95% efficiency number must be subtracting that (and rolling resistance) out.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#96
post #28
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a model 3 from 2019 that is not quite as extreme, but gets similar issues. It should have 350 km of range. I see some people posting insane wh/km numbers, but I think I'm doing a pretty decent job (130-140 wh/km or ~225.31 wh/mile average outside of the winter); I barely get 270-280km, max. The issue isn't the driving range, but rather the unexplained loss of range. I'm talking about losses of 7.5% if I leave…

Idle draw is a pretty common complaint for Teslas.

I’ve only seen an EV do that once. The 12V battery died about a week later. (Or, rather, I left it parked, and after pouring 10% (!!) of the high voltage battery into the 12V, it gave up and completely shut down.)

Anyway, I wonder if Tesla’s are missing the “if 12V is completely shot, give up” logic. Replacing it is cheap and might fix the car. Some models let you monitor the 12V charger with an OBD-II dongle.

That’d let you prove me right or wrong.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#97
post #86

Having road tripped from Florida to Washington and back in a big circle around the country, it is my firm belief that every single person complaining about the range estimates in a Tesla is speeding. By altering my driving style, I can get more range than the estimate. It's extremely predictable and accurate, to the point where I can notice the power drain from the self driving computers/cameras, arrive at the next s…

The article is talking not about the route planner, which I agree usually gives very accurate estimates for specific routes, but the advertised theoretical driving "EPA ranges", which are quite inflated.

However, from what I can tell, the EPA numbers from all manufacturers are quite unrealistic, because the methodology doesn't match real-world driving.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#98
post #86

Having road tripped from Florida to Washington and back in a big circle around the country, it is my firm belief that every single person complaining about the range estimates in a Tesla is speeding. By altering my driving style, I can get more range than the estimate. It's extremely predictable and accurate, to the point where I can notice the power drain from the self driving computers/cameras, arrive at the next s…

The article is talking not about the route planner, which I agree usually gives very accurate estimates for specific routes , but the advertised theoretical driving "EPA ranges", which are quite inflated. However, from what I can tell, the EPA numbers from all manufacturers are quite unrealistic, because the methodology doesn't match real-world driving.

Yes, this is certainly true for ICE vehicles. The measurement methodology is spelled out in exacting detail, and yields highly repeatable results. Realistic? Nope, not at all. Nobody could claim that. But, it is repeatable and comparable, so that you can compare car A to car B. It gives you a strict rank order for vehicles that are driven exactly the same way, it just so happens that no person drives exactly that particular way. The utility is in providing a repeatable point of comparison. Is that useful?... forgive me for saying it, but YMMV.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#99
post #86

Having road tripped from Florida to Washington and back in a big circle around the country, it is my firm belief that every single person complaining about the range estimates in a Tesla is speeding. By altering my driving style, I can get more range than the estimate. It's extremely predictable and accurate, to the point where I can notice the power drain from the self driving computers/cameras, arrive at the next s…

The article is talking not about the route planner, which I agree usually gives very accurate estimates for specific routes , but the advertised theoretical driving "EPA ranges", which are quite inflated. However, from what I can tell, the EPA numbers from all manufacturers are quite unrealistic, because the methodology doesn't match real-world driving.

The problem with EPA range is that it's a compromise between highway range and city range, so it's almost guaranteed to poorly match your driving unless your daily driving mix equals the averages. This is a consequence of insisting on one number, not inflation.

Inb4 "just pick highway range and be conservative" -- no, because then you will buy a car with great aerodynamics and terrible regen and spend all day driving it around the city using the terrible regen and not using the great aerodynamics.

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