Apple Exclaves • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Exclaves

#11

Post by akyuu » Mon, Mar 10, 2025, 12:32 AM UTC

I wonder how this will affect macOS security, since SPTM is not used according to Apple documentation: https://support.apple.com/guide/security/operating-system-in...

For now, I think existing exclaves such as the one that displays the camera indicator do not really apply to macOS (since MacBooks have dedicated hardware for that), but in the future there might be exclaves that do.

Re: Apple Exclaves

#12

Post by vermilingua » Mon, Mar 10, 2025, 12:49 AM UTC

kazinator wrote: post #10

If most of the stuff the user cares about is inside the "Insecure World" bubble of the diagram, then this whole business is, like, for shit. It serves only the platform provider, who can decide which programs may or may not be installed based on whether they are aligned with or against their competitive interests.

This is just plainly false. Passkeys, biometrics, app permissions, and a suite of other user-centric privacy features have clear benefit from strong isolation from an "insecure world" kernel.

Re: Apple Exclaves

#13

Post by sollewitt » Mon, Mar 10, 2025, 1:00 AM UTC

kazinator wrote: post #10

If most of the stuff the user cares about is inside the "Insecure World" bubble of the diagram, then this whole business is, like, for shit. It serves only the platform provider, who can decide which programs may or may not be installed based on whether they are aligned with or against their competitive interests.

This is about process privilege. Apps and services are a layer above.

Re: Apple Exclaves

#14

Post by tptacek » Mon, Mar 10, 2025, 1:00 AM UTC

transpute wrote: post #2

Related thread, "Apple rearranged its XNU kernel with exclaves" , https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43314171

For what it's worth, this article is much better.

Re: Apple Exclaves

#15

Post by metadat » Mon, Mar 10, 2025, 1:02 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #14

transpute wrote: post #2

Related thread, "Apple rearranged its XNU kernel with exclaves" , https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43314171

For what it's worth, this article is much better.

100% agree.

The discussion has been underwhelming:

I read TFA and wasn't sure what to even make of it.

Re: Apple Exclaves

#16

Post by musicale » Mon, Mar 10, 2025, 1:06 AM UTC

neom wrote: post #9

I think Steve truly believed at his core, very simply: your laptop is your diary, and they have a responsibility to that. I don't think Tim would be CEO if he didn't believe what Steve did. It's so weird, but I really miss Steve. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij-jlF98SzA

It is weird. Jobs was divisive and (not infrequently) abrasive, and why would you miss a tech billionaire anyway? Yet I also feel indebted to him and to the folks at Apple who helped to produce some of my favorite products like the Mac, the iPod, and the iPad.

Jobs also said a lot of things that still resonate with me. Recently Apple introduced a "classic Mac" screensaver that shows how carefully designed the original Mac GUI was. I'm sure nobody misses the days when app bugs could crash the OS, but I wish Apple were as obsessive now about detail now as they were back then.

Re: Apple Exclaves

#17

Post by gnabgib » Mon, Mar 10, 2025, 1:06 AM UTC

metadat wrote: post #15

tptacek wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, this article is much better.

100% agree. The discussion has been underwhelming: I read TFA and wasn't sure what to even make of it.

That is underwhelming! (But also.. that's *this* discussion.. and the other discussion is already linked by GP.. so I'm not really sure what you're aiming for here)

Re: Apple Exclaves

#18

Post by transpute » Mon, Mar 10, 2025, 1:07 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #14

transpute wrote: post #2

Related thread, "Apple rearranged its XNU kernel with exclaves" , https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43314171

For what it's worth, this article is much better.

For more detail, there's a 3-part series on iOS SPTM and TXM:

Aug 2023, https://www.df-f.com/blog/ios17

Nov 2023, https://www.df-f.com/blog/ios-17round2

Feb 2025, https://www.df-f.com/blog/sptm3

Re: Apple Exclaves

#19

Post by metadat » Mon, Mar 10, 2025, 1:08 AM UTC

gnabgib wrote: post #17

metadat wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agree. The discussion has been underwhelming: I read TFA and wasn't sure what to even make of it.

That is underwhelming! (But also.. that's *this* discussion.. and the other discussion is already linked by GP.. so I'm not really sure what you're aiming for here)

Only attempting to share information. Is there an unstated next step (or next-next step) given Apple's moves?

A gentle suggestion for a more interesting / entertaining article currently on the front page with a glance: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43311696

Hatching a Conspiracy: A BIG Investigation into Egg Prices

https://www.thebignewsletter.com/p/hatching-a-conspiracy-a-b...

P.s. @gnabgib thanks for all your excellent dupe postings! I used to do a lot but life got busier. You are appreciated.

Edit: @thrdbndndn: My bad, yes this submitted article is the one that sucks. Thank you! If you delete your reply it will make things less confusing, but no worries and best wishes.

Re: Apple Exclaves

#20

Post by GeekyBear » Mon, Mar 10, 2025, 1:08 AM UTC

transpute wrote: post #2

Related thread, "Apple rearranged its XNU kernel with exclaves" , https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43314171

An overview from that piece:

> exclaves refer to specific resources that are separated from the main kernel (XNU) and cannot be accessed by it, even if the kernel is compromise

Also interesting:

> It’s not uncommon for mid-cycle releases of macOS to gain new features in preparation for the next major version. Perhaps the most fundamental and significant added to Sonoma 14.4, together with iOS 17.4, iPadOS 17.4 and watchOS 10.4, are exclaves.

https://eclecticlight.co/2024/08/20/sonomas-unfinished-busin...