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Layoffs Don't Work

thehustle.co

471–480 of 801 posts

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Government employment is 95% the time completely divorced from reality This is a pretty big claim to make without any evidence to support it. The government, whether it be state, local, county federal etc. does in have a different pace and certainly like with any big organizations can have issues such as waste, but to say it’s completely divorced from reality , especially in context of somehow private (as in not go…

Private companies generally need to be efficient and make money or go out of business. VC funded startups are a VERY small percentage of jobs compared to ALL private company employees. But, sure, there is much shenanigans there. Public companies can play tons of games as well - but the vast majority of people employed at public companies are at relatively efficient and profitable companies. Government services are un…

> Private companies generally need to be efficient and make money or go out of business.

Half of this statement is true. A private company definitely can’t run at a loss forever. Although in the era of ZIRP a few definitely made a solid go of it.

However nothing requires an any company, and especially a private one, to be efficient. If an otherwise profitable and privately-held company wants to swell its middle management ranks or spend lots of cash employing the owners’ dubiously capable relatives, there’s nothing to stop it.

Incidentally that’s mostly true of public companies with diverse shareholders, too.

The idea that private enterprise is always efficient is a myth, as is evident to anyone who’s worked for a large enough corporation, or even a small one where management weirdly shields some obviously incompetent people for internal political reasons.

The only correcting factor is that companies can fail, and smaller competitors can sometimes find ways to undercut large, inefficient firms. But often the small company gets acquired or out-marketed. So there’s nothing inevitable about any of this.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have done probably 500 to 1000 tech screens for big tech companies (as the interviewer) and this is completely true. I have interviewed many people employed in tech as programmers for their entire career and they can't code. I don't meen leetcode, I mean they get confused trying to write brute force substring search. The nested for loop seems to be too complex for them to keep in their head all at once. I have had…

What is really crazy about this though is that sometimes it really is the interview setting, as people unused to interviews can, at times, emotionally collapse. I have seen people who are actually good programmers get wrecked by simple questions because of their inability to handle stress, and how the lack of interview practice turns a simple exercise into a hellscape. It's not as if testing for performance under str…

Not to imply that you're wrong, but I've always been bad at LC interviews, but surprisingly (for myself) passable when called upon to troubleshoot and code up a hot fix in the middle of the night. Maybe those are not entirely similar types of pressures.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#473
post #315

Had been advocating slower hiring & targeted reductions in a mid-sized tech firm for years after COVID, but it happened much faster under a newly appointed CEO. Under new leadership, we executed 1/3 layoffs framed as a "culture refresh" and to briefly lift the stock. It wasn't about survival, we had plenty of cash, okayish growth and fantastic ARR - more about a new corp-backed CEO adopting a "do-it-like-Elon" approa…

There’s weirdly (to intuitive sense and business zeitgeist since the 80s or so) mixed data on layoffs in general. There’s a decent chance they cause more mid-term harm than good, most of the time.

They also didn’t used to be a regular feature of business.

It’s funny how such things become “ordinary” and “obviously good things to do sometimes” that haven’t always been the former, and may not really be the latter either.

Business management is vibes, trend-following, and fear of straying from the pack. And the best of that is vibes! That’s how bad it is.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, a recruiter I know will ask a tech candidate "what is 20% of 20,000?" A significant percentage cannot answer the question. Some even cry. It's shocking. During our interview, we ask candidates to design a history system. The key is to realize that our database is only 8Gb, and storing a year of updates is only 160Gb, so $2pm in AWS. Once there, a simple DB table suits, no need to set up Amazon S3. So w…

Does your interview process require knowing cloud costs off the top of your head? Because that's hard to track tbh

Sounds like it requires knowing them to an order of magnitude or so... Which honestly sounds like a pretty good bar to have your team above?

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#475

Real talk here, and I'm sorry for being "that guy" Why do tech workers get so wrapped around the axle of layoffs when most people are in a chronic state of tech job hopping? I know multiple people who have worked their entire career thus far without ever staying at a place for more than 3 or 4 years. Some no more than two. Tech job culture is practically a mono culture with "hop jobs" being a hallmark. From an employ…

Because not every company gives severance during layoffs. As someone who got RIFed (again - fourth time in my 15yr career), this is the first time I've had severance, and the first time I had a notice period that wasn't just "till the end of the month". As such, layoffs are traumatic just on their own.

Adding more rapid-fire context (for the sake of brevity):

* Parents changed jobs every few years growing up, which meant a new city, new home, new schools, and a complete cycling of relationships (forcibly out with the old, forcibly in with the new)

* I watched layoffs in non-tech sectors gradually go from tech-style severance packages, to no packages beyond the required WARN notice period payouts, to filing the notices and hoping nobody asks, to now just paying out any damages after-the-fact in lawsuits

* I spent ~15mo unemployed during the "Great Recession" of '08, ending up having to move to another region of the country for work and spending a night homeless, followed by six-months couch surfing, then another month in a hotel before finally having an apartment again

So all that put together, layoffs and job changes are incredibly traumatic experiences I do my best to avoid at all costs. I am one of those "lifers" who would much rather hunker down for a good wage today, buy a home, sock away savings, and work my way up an internal career ladder than throw myself into an entirely new workplace, colleagues, culture, and standards every year or two. I claw for multiple roles in an org (at the most recent one, I was juggling roles on Private Cloud & Public Cloud, Governance Councils, leading a CaaS ops overhaul, plus other PoCs) specifically to make myself as indispensable as possible and position myself on the internal promotional ladder, because I'd rather stay with one org provided I can eke out a modest living and take care of those I care about (myself included).

Now all that aside, there's also the reality that wage growth from job hopping hasn't turned out to be as big as folks thought. The real growth comes from career promotions, which companies hate doling out internally for profoundly stupid and arbitrary reasons (hence job hopping). I get the impression most folks would stay put if they could get the growth in their career they wanted, but companies would rather hire someone externally to fill a spot than promote someone internally operating at that level; I am very much in that group myself. Heck, we're seeing that now with folks not leaving jobs because they're having difficulty finding that growth (in comp and title) elsewhere, as everyone kind of knuckles down for tough times ahead. That taste of stability will create more "lifers" as you put it, especially when the world outside is increasingly unstable; it's natural that humans (and most animals) will seek stability in times of crisis, taking only as much risk as necessary to preserve their survival.

Something the article doesn't get into is the knock-on effect of layoffs in future business: if workers are let go for what they perceive to be arbitrary or irrational reasons, they're less likely to want to do business with that company again in the future. This is particularly why tech companies offer such good severance packages, as it's their mea culpa of sorts by trying to buy themselves a good reputation on the way out the door. When everyone is doing it though (like the current layoff cycles), it becomes a broader disgust or distaste for established vendors in general, and those workers - when they land a new role - are likely to want to migrate off their employer's products unless their career is tied to it somehow. This can reduce business after cuts had already been made, potentially putting an organization into a cycle of self-harm wherein more cuts are made in response to declining business, which then causes more declines in business, which leads to more cuts, etc. This in turn leaves a huge opening for new startups to enter the hole left behind by established players, undercutting them on pricing and providing better service.

So taking all of that into context when reading the article again, and it paints a pretty telling picture of widespread mismanagement at companies doing unwarranted and highly traumatic layoffs. If the only thing your leadership can do to grow the business is to layoff staff, that's a pretty telling sign that business ain't doing so great in general and leaders are out of ideas to improve it.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#476
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have interviewed many people employed in tech as programmers for their entire career and they can't code. Think about this contradictory statement for a while. Can it actually be true? Or is there something else going on? If the interviewee has nothing but sub-1yr stints on their resume, perpetually getting fired before vesting at any company, then yes, it's very possible they actually can't code and just fake it…

I know a lot of people who can tweak code that already exists. However, if they are sitting in front of an empty text editor and given a goal, they don’t know how to break the problem down and build a solution with the tools the language gives them. In a large environment, someone may rarely need to start from nothing, so the interview format throws them. That said, I think being able to break down a problem to solve…

> I know a lot of people who can tweak code that already exists. However, if they are sitting in front of an empty text editor and given a goal, they don’t know how to break the problem down and build a solution with the tools the language gives them.

But being able to break things down and come up with a solution is not necessarily something that needs to be done quickly, in the time you have for an interview. Quite often I've been faced with a new problem and done absolutely nothing visible for ages. Literally just reading around the problem, asking questions, and sketching in my mind without writing a single line of code.

This is often faster and better than starting immediately.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#477
post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should you get a vote? You don’t get a vote on what groceries I buy. What entitles you to a vote on this purchase decision? (In this case “all the votes” means when making decisions on actions a particular corporation is considering, not any vote on anything)

Lots of places take vote on what you can buy, eg weed, alcohol, which additives are allowed and so on

The creation and transacting of corporate shares is also highly regulated. But it doesn’t address the question of why a third party should get a vote that helps decide a particular corporate action. Votes that limit the possible actions of all corporations equally are a different thing.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#478
post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not passing any judgements on any life choices here, but occasional months off sounds like a good thing. I would not necessarily need to go anywhere to enjoy (make use of) the time. The notion of getting a month off with pay sounds good.

That sounds good, so long as there is similar employment at the end of it. As a sabbatical it sounds great. As a layoff, the uncertainty sounds crushing. It could take months to find a new position, especially with the disadvantages I have, I would likely need to start looking immediately and wouldn't be able to enjoy it.

Yeah, it's the same problem I have when the 20 somethings use the term "funemployment".

If you're single and have no responsibilities, sure. The second you have a mortgage, medical conditions that need health insurance, or need money because you had a family emergency and had to dip into savings, it's not "funemployment" at all.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#479
post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Many companies rotate the bottom N percent to dump the bad performers I have never seen this actually happen in practice. It's always specific teams and projects that get fired because some C-Level fucked up and pushed for some ego project, or over-hired and placed those poor souls in useless projects.

[flagged]

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot speak for layoffs in all industries ever, but I agree with your assessment of layoffs in big tech from personal experiences. I have way too many “lifer” friends in big tech who are deadly scared of layoffs and job hopping. They are also the ones who rarely got promoted and havent had a significant pay bump pretty much ever. On another hand, half my team at a big tech company got laid off back at the start of…

Yeah, I make the same adjusted for inflation that I did when I got my last/only promotion 10 years ago. I have grey hair, a disability, and a family that relies on the health insurance. Switching or being laid off is a risky proposition for me. It sounds like all your examples are young, childless people (who else could take a month off to go vacationing?). Life is much harder for some of us.

Yeah, the prospect of layoffs hits a little different when you're in your 50s. I have some non-techie friends in their 50s (sales, project management) who have been looking for a job for years. I've even heard third-hand about some good programmers in their 50s in LA in the same boat, although I don't know them personally.

The last time I was looking for a job at age 48, I interviewed at a bunch of startups and only got a second interview from one. It was clear that most of them were never going with someone my age unless I'd written a book or had patents or something (or was ex-FAANG), even if they didn't consciously realize that.

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