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US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

ukrainetoday.org

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Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#501

Post by AlecSchueler »

rocqua wrote: post #471
AlecSchueler wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The point stands that Europe needs to arm itself. Europe needs to be able to defend itself without the US. Indeed there is slight toxicity to calling this 'manning up'. Especially towards men, where it signals that men should be strong enough to defend themselves. Which wronly reinforces the idea that capability in violence is a positive trait in men.

Thank you for that understanding and nuanced response. It actually gives me great comfort to see someone communicate so well in today's climate.

I of course agree with the point about Europe and you've beautifully captured the reason why the phrasing gave me an uneasy feeling. The line between the necessary reaction and over-reaction is terrifyingly small and I hope for the best for all of us.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#502

Post by [deleted] »

moduspol wrote: post #390
ta988 wrote: post #228

And the story continues. This means that no country will want to buy F16s. If you don't get support they are useless. They are eroding really fast the US shine and trust in the world. This is going to have a massive effect on the US economy, internal consumption will not save it. This is the end of an empire while its rich kings are golfing every weekend on the taxpayer dime using federal and local resources. I am re…

Actually we just want the war in Ukraine to end. Hope that helps. There's a lot of bloviating from the chattering class about cozying up to Russia, but I've yet to hear a cogent alternative. And no, I don't think "endlessly funding Ukraine to a forever stalemate" qualifies.

[deleted]

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#503

Post by jajko »

lolinder wrote: post #258
samcheng wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best explanation I've heard is that this (almost) half of the US population doesn't care if it hurts a bit, as long as it hurts the other half of the US population more.

No, that's not it. I'm writing this from rural America in deep Trump territory, and people here are already struggling and have been for years. From their perspective they've been left out of the benefits of the global economy—the big cities and the coasts might be better off, but the middle of the country wants to go back to when they had opportunities and jobs for working class Americans. They're almost certainly w…

That's what populists do, everywhere including Europe - they take real issue and low-income & low-education folks (usually big overlap), tell then how they were wronged, play on their emotions, dumb down things to us-vs-them yada yada.

But they never ever deliver any real solution. Never. What trump solved in first term? No wall, he was joke of the world for that. No middle east peace - fuck, he made the invasion to Israel by giving Jerusalem official israeli status. Palestinians lost all hope at that point (I know its way more complex than that, I know, but this was the trigger point to go full mental like a cornered animal). Afghanistan withdrawal? Thats his contracts with taliban which made US look so weak they were shooting ducks as you guys and rest of west literally ran away for your life.

To make any successful long term massive changes, you need a steady leadership. trump is the opposite due to his mental & childhood issues, heck he is the epitome of instability. And so he drags whole world into same instability, changing global markets from bullish to bearish within a week, losing literally all friends and allies, globally. No, puttin' ain't your friend and never will be, he is a murderous sociopathic p.o.s. till his last breath.

If simpler folks refuse to see all this and much more and connect those few dots, your idea of babysitting them and hald-holding in ever changing environment is laughable. Even in Europe you guys consider semi-communist we don't do that, we can't do that, its idiotic. This problem is not unique to US in any way and solution ain't what he wants to do. But its so nice to hear all that crap, "I will fix your woes", "the others are to blame for all your issues" and so on. Full on emotions, 0 rationality. Folks, even societies work like that, but get ready China will overtake you sooner than you would like.

I kept thinking he is just a russian agent brainwashed in 80s during his visit to moscow (maybe deep hypnosis or something else), but it seems more and more he is doing massive favors to China actually, since russia is already insignificant globally. I don't mean some pesky tariffs, I mean whole world will realign around China, and he is giving it all to them for free. Bravo.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#504

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

blibble wrote: post #398
lucasyvas wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s easy to prove that half is wrong as well because all the US’ (past) global friends are screaming at the US trying to save them from driving off the cliff. It’s one thing for the US to want to remake itself - gradual, cooperative plans to reduce engagement on the world stage over multiple years would have been something manageable. Pulling the cord with such little respect will not be forgotten. The USD will be l…

> The USD will be lucky to still be the reserve currency in 5-10 years time. if the US regime carries on at the rate it has over the last month I expect it will be gone considerably faster than this

This stuff moves slowly, until it doesn't. I'd honestly say at least ten years for large changes.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#505

Post by convolvatron »

Vilian wrote: post #435
moduspol wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually we just want the war in Ukraine to end. Hope that helps. There's a lot of bloviating from the chattering class about cozying up to Russia, but I've yet to hear a cogent alternative. And no, I don't think "endlessly funding Ukraine to a forever stalemate" qualifies.

I don't want to see Ukrainian genocide by Russia, hope that help

I would rather not have to live through an emboldened and desperate autocracy rolling over Europe and opening up the very real possibility of a third world war.

and while we're here, since the US is ostensibly going isolationist, maybe they should stop telling the Ukrainians they need to submit to subjugation.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#507

Post by Jerrrrrry »

acdha wrote: post #405
bufferoverflow wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has been pretty vocal about exactly that. He said multiple times that European countries must increase defense budgets significantly.

Yes, but he said that in the context of buying American products. He wanted the American economy to benefit from arms sales, not a more independent Europe.

Source please, that seems totally made up.

He has been clear about NATO %'s, very little room for your confusion.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#508

Post by colechristensen »

epistasis wrote: post #266
ta988 wrote: post #228

And the story continues. This means that no country will want to buy F16s. If you don't get support they are useless. They are eroding really fast the US shine and trust in the world. This is going to have a massive effect on the US economy, internal consumption will not save it. This is the end of an empire while its rich kings are golfing every weekend on the taxpayer dime using federal and local resources. I am re…

I always thought that the American Empire would be dismantled when it elected a leftist steeped in anti-imperialist ideology who wanted to better the world. Nope, turns out that the American Empire is being dismantled by something else entirely. A subset of the populace that feels jealous of those with more and scared of social change, reacting to try to hurt their fellow country men? A megalomaniac leader who is som…

Calling Republicans jealous and afraid is a good way to make yourself feel better but very much misses the character of what's happening. The "I'm a superior son of a bitch" attitude of leftists is gross. Saying "they're just jealous" is something you tell children.

What you're saying here is "we're better than everyone else and everyone else disagrees with my positions because they envy how awesome we are".

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#510

Post by ForTheKidz »

sho_hn wrote: post #304
epistasis wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought that the American Empire would be dismantled when it elected a leftist steeped in anti-imperialist ideology who wanted to better the world. Nope, turns out that the American Empire is being dismantled by something else entirely. A subset of the populace that feels jealous of those with more and scared of social change, reacting to try to hurt their fellow country men? A megalomaniac leader who is som…

I think the meta is studying history, and wondering if any slide toward facism has ever been successfully stopped in its tracks without being beaten down in wars. The two sort-of examples in Western history I can think of are Spain after Franco, and the UK in the 1930s. In Spain a monarch's left-shift was perhaps the deciding and surprising variable, and in the UK it was a powerful civil rights movement. The US has n…

Pinochet is an example, albeit not a particularly hopeful one.
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