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US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

ukrainetoday.org

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Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#371

Post by stouset »

apwell23 wrote: post #194
rich_sasha wrote: post #3

Right now every buyer of American kit is feverishly evaluating non-US alternatives. Seriously, America, this is like Brexit but 1000x. A voluntary decision, taken with gusto, to chop off arms and legs and ears and fingers and whatnot, cut off the deadwood, be light and free, a lone vessel on the ocean of prosperity, free of the burden of the stupid foreigners who are the sole reason why everything was going wrong.

> Right now every buyer of American kit is feverishly evaluating non-US alternatives. they are doing what they should've been doing this whole time?

Does Europe lessening their desire to buy US-designed and US-made military hardware benefit or harm the US?

Extend this to other areas of commerce. If the US is no longer a reliable trade partner and its allies lessen their economic ties, is that a positive outcome for the US?

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#372

Post by Someone »

eunos wrote: post #4
rich_sasha wrote: post #3

Right now every buyer of American kit is feverishly evaluating non-US alternatives. Seriously, America, this is like Brexit but 1000x. A voluntary decision, taken with gusto, to chop off arms and legs and ears and fingers and whatnot, cut off the deadwood, be light and free, a lone vessel on the ocean of prosperity, free of the burden of the stupid foreigners who are the sole reason why everything was going wrong.

Especially F-35 where lack of American support means total brick. Hey, at least Ukraine can use their S-300 systems and Sukhois against their maker.

I don’t know how much it’s worth but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning...:

“On 27 May 2006, President George W. Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair announced that "Both governments agree that the UK will have the ability to successfully operate, upgrade, employ, and maintain the Joint Strike Fighter such that the UK retains operational sovereignty over the aircraft." In December 2006, an agreement was signed which met the UK's demands for further participation, i.e., access to software source code and operational sovereignty. The agreement allows "an unbroken British chain of command" for operation of the aircraft.”

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#373

Post by nxm »

jmye wrote: post #232
rich_sasha wrote: post #3

Right now every buyer of American kit is feverishly evaluating non-US alternatives. Seriously, America, this is like Brexit but 1000x. A voluntary decision, taken with gusto, to chop off arms and legs and ears and fingers and whatnot, cut off the deadwood, be light and free, a lone vessel on the ocean of prosperity, free of the burden of the stupid foreigners who are the sole reason why everything was going wrong.

It’s “great” in the sense that this will decimate the US military industry (great or “great” depending on your view of American hegemony). China and Europe will be stronger, and America is absolutely finished as a world power. So much winning, eh?

Europe has had 20 summits and talks about what they plan to plan to plan to do… eventually. USA will be fine.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#374

Post by galleywest200 »

lucasyvas wrote: post #315

I find some of the comments I’ve read today in this thread somewhat enlightening - there is intelligent conversation about the capabilities of the American hardware and its software. The sophistication of the F-35 cannot be debated. But the rest of the world doesn’t trust the US anymore, so it doesn’t matter how good it is - people would gladly explore a worse product because they see it as lower risk. That’s the rea…

>and its superiority is front and center.

The vast majority of the comments I am reading on this site are not stating this. The vast majority, even the Americans, are agreeing that this is a bad decision. Unsure where you got this from.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#376

Post by ncruces »

pokstad wrote: post #196
TrackerFF wrote: post #135

Who would have thought that the POTUS would be the person to kick foreign arms industries into sixth gear?

Well he’s been very vocal about NATO countries increasing their defense contributions. That doesn’t necessarily mean that the US needs to sell all the weapons.

And all everybody speaks of is expenditure, not capabilities. That alone should tell you what the goal is.

Except it might backfire if Europe understandably decides it must buy European.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#377

Post by ambicapter »

lolinder wrote: post #258
samcheng wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best explanation I've heard is that this (almost) half of the US population doesn't care if it hurts a bit, as long as it hurts the other half of the US population more.

No, that's not it. I'm writing this from rural America in deep Trump territory, and people here are already struggling and have been for years. From their perspective they've been left out of the benefits of the global economy—the big cities and the coasts might be better off, but the middle of the country wants to go back to when they had opportunities and jobs for working class Americans. They're almost certainly w…

Saw an interesting article on zero-sum thinking as contingent on the idea that the pie stays fixed, thus ruling out the possibility of "lose a little now, but the pie grows overall so your share grows more to compensate" (the basis for friendly trade relations, basically).

What I realized was that, for people who've been "left out of the benefits of the global economy", that picture makes total sense--the pie didn't grow, and in fact probably shrank for them. Thus, zero-sum thinking makes perfect rational sense. It's an accurate worldview, and anyone trumpeting "the pie will grow, you just need to give up a little more (in increased taxes or jobs shipped elsewhere)" in spite of the evidence that IT HASN'T, must be either a fool or outright lying to them.

Anyways, for the first time I felt myself understanding a little bit how these voters may feel.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#378

Post by mistrial9 »

RandyOrion wrote: post #358
mistrial9 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you are talking about ( edit almost) a third of the entire human population, as if you know better. Reality says - random armchair Western Educated Individual Rich and Democratic does not rule the day for a third of humanity by claiming some political imperative. More reality - the Muslim world is organized and very wealthy in spots. By confrontational and arrogant (see above) posturing and actions by Westerns, it dr…

The combined population of China and Russia is less than a fifth of the world (15-16 bn vs 80+ bn). Edit: should be 1.5-1.6 bn vs 8 bn. I'm only discussing Trump's behaviour and its effect on totalitarian governments, I don't have enough knowledge to discuss the rest of what you wrote. I think the recent series of Trump's actions against Ukraine have failed to send a message to totalitarian governments that matches h…

please read this page:

https://worldpopulationreview.com/

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#379

Post by nxm »

mijamo wrote: post #32
bboygravity wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when was the US in the European Union or even near Europe? How is it like Brexit in the slightest? Why is it the US's responsibility to finance and organize the majority of EU's defense? PS: I'm from and in Europe. I don't get why it is a good or logical thing that the US should be responsible for the majority of "Western" defense on our territory.

It was a win win arrangement of sorts. Europe got to spend less on defense. US won a reliable ally that would not challenge them much, and help enforce worldwide US dominance. Basically a near vassal situation.

How exactly was the US benefiting in this arrangement? Sounds very one sided if the American tax payer is doing the bulk of spending while Europe is freeloading

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#380

Post by kragen »

devsda wrote: post #273
tim333 wrote: post #128

I'm wondering if the deal with Trump and Russia is just favours like they find investors for his questionable businesses and he helps them or if they do have kompromat? Apparently in the days they were entertaining him in Moscow it was quite common to provide hookers and film things and given Trump's character it may not have been that hard to get him to go along. He always looks rather embarrassed with Putin. Also i…

"Trump is an alien impersonator trying to destroy humanity from within to make it easier for the aliens to colonize earth" That is also a probable explanation for what's happening, if you believe in UFOs and aliens. Sorry, I mean no disrespect. As a non-american and non-westerner, it's absolutely wild to see what people are willing to believe when it comes to Trump. Surely, there's a more rational and simple explanat…

Perhaps you have thought of one? If so, the rest of us are dying to hear it.
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