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Layoffs Don't Work

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Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#141

Post by CPLX »

alphazard wrote: post #98

There is a theory about large complex systems which seems to be true in biology and maybe applies here. Intentional downsizing during times of stress works when it preferentially targets defective or dysfunctional components of the larger system. The system improves because the worst parts were removed. Layoffs don't help companies unless they can reliably remove the worst parts. At most large public companies, the c…

There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to think Twitter's financial performance improved after going private.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#142

Post by hobs »

alphazard wrote: post #98

There is a theory about large complex systems which seems to be true in biology and maybe applies here. Intentional downsizing during times of stress works when it preferentially targets defective or dysfunctional components of the larger system. The system improves because the worst parts were removed. Layoffs don't help companies unless they can reliably remove the worst parts. At most large public companies, the c…

Outside engineering is not ever an oracle, and it has its own interior motives and bureaucracy, firing people is generally a one way street.

Twitter has literally issued authoritarian threats to advertisers to come on its platform or else because of how much its valuation has dropped and how much money has been lost - this is the worst example of "engineering oracle fixing things" I could possibly imagine.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#143

Post by billy99k »

_benj wrote: post #85
steveBK123 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. If you give up a good job to join a firm that has over-hired, its only obvious in retrospect that you took a bad risk.

This hits home. I wish there was a way to gauge “retrospect” before actually suffering from it. I’m now usually quite weary of “we’ve had to get yet another loan of 60 mil, after 6 years in business because we don’t know how to make a profitable business” also known as a series C or whatever.

I don't work full-time for startups, because of this. I was contracting for a startup last summer for about 6 months. They paid really well, but after researching the company, they were on their 3rd round of funding. The estimated yearly profits were a sliver of this, meaning they were burning through VC money hoping for an acquisition or somehow massively increasing profits. The product was also in a very crowded space with lots of competitors.

They had 3 other contractors working on the same functionality and they were all let go within a couple of weeks, because I could get it done 2X faster and without many integration issues.

I would have gladly kept working as a contractor, but when I refused a full-time work offer, they cut all contact off with me.

I would talk to the FTE frequently and they were always overworked and on multiple teams.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#144

Post by cjaackie »

alphazard wrote: post #98

There is a theory about large complex systems which seems to be true in biology and maybe applies here. Intentional downsizing during times of stress works when it preferentially targets defective or dysfunctional components of the larger system. The system improves because the worst parts were removed. Layoffs don't help companies unless they can reliably remove the worst parts. At most large public companies, the c…

Could I be missing something, but are you seriously promoting layoffs? You must be trolling by using twitter as functional example of why they work? I think sometimes I miss sarcastic tones and I really hope i did with this one

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#146

Post by e12e »

dylan604 wrote: post #131
fx1994 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are a small team in big company, and management that made wrong decisions is still somewhere there but not my direct management, still getting same paycheck, car, cards and benefits but new managers (that accepted to take over and got brand new car for 100k€, cards and bonuses, bells and whistles) started to layoff workers so we know this is the end for my team, and of course they will do whatever it takes to "sav…

If your small team in a big company does not directly generate money, then you’d definitely be ripe for elimination. Time and time again we’ve seen examples of trams that are critical to supporting various revenue generating parts of the company while not directly making money themselves get cut as an “obvious” way to save money when only looking at the books. Been there.

> Time and time again we’ve seen examples of trams that are critical to supporting various revenue generating parts of the company while not directly making money themselves get cut as an “obvious” way to save money when only looking at the books.

Love how your typo turned into a beautiful metaphor for infrastructure being cut.

Save the trams!

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#147

Post by ninetyninenine »

andrenotgiant wrote: post #44

> After the early-2000s dotcom bust, Bain researchers found that stock prices for S&P 500 companies that had no layoffs or laid off less than 3% of their workforce increased an average of 9% in the next year. Meanwhile, stock prices were flat in companies that laid off between 3%-10% of their workers, and prices plummeted 38% for companies that laid off more than 10%. Failing companies go through layoffs. Companies l…

This correlation isn’t necessarily causal. Companies that are failing are more likely to layoff could be just as true as companies that layoff are more likely to fail.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#148

Post by ctb_mg »

csomar wrote: post #27

The layoffs are not the issue. It is the decision makers who took the two decisions to both over-hire and then mass-fire shortly after. GM is a great example. The company was the largest and one of the most innovative car manufacturers in the world. It doesn't stand a chance against BYD today and it is not by a lack of money (though maybe with a C-suite change). So my opinion is, yes, the damage is done (or being don…

> one of the most innovative car manufacturers in the world

Off topic, but I'd like some more specific thoughts regarding what you are aware of for specific automotive technologies that GM has innovated over the past decades, to make this statement.

Intuitively, GM cars do not do well internationally, have been known to have creaky interior build quality, have silly features like turning the reverse lights on when you unlock the car in a parking lot, and are not competitive on a scale of luxury compared to their European and Japanese counterparts.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#149

Post by gruez »

nthingtohide wrote: post #134
gruez wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>E.g. no HFT firm should be able to make a profit from such a stock market. Selling stocks earlier and often should result in a penalty or percentage being taken away as a fee. Maybe by "HFT" you only mean "those evil hedge funds that are pushing companies to chase next quarters' earnings", but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with high frequency trading. Market making[1] is high frequency trading, and basically i…

All these HFT stuff reminds me of chinese event where people send each other gift money as a good will gesture. Revenue is high but no meaningful transaction has happened. The money is just being exchanged between the same top HFT firms. And the best of our minds are fighting it out in the arena of algorithms rather than creating real world value.

>Revenue is high but no meaningful transaction has happened. The money is just being exchanged between the same top HFT firms. And the best of our minds are fighting it out in the arena of algorithms rather than creating real world value.

Liquidity is "real world value". Being able to buy/sell a stock instantly without a massive premium/discount makes stock ownership for the average person possible. Contrast this to an liquid market, like buying houses, where you need to spend months house hunting, and pay a 6% commission on top.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#150

Post by Workaccount2 »

Real talk here, and I'm sorry for being "that guy"

Why do tech workers get so wrapped around the axle of layoffs when most people are in a chronic state of tech job hopping? I know multiple people who have worked their entire career thus far without ever staying at a place for more than 3 or 4 years. Some no more than two. Tech job culture is practically a mono culture with "hop jobs" being a hallmark.

From an employers perspective it's not laying off a bunch of family members (Southwest has an average tenure of 11.5 years), it's laying off a bunch of people who were gonna dip in 6 months to a year anyway.

I know this is controversial take, but recognize that the tech industry is an outlier industry, with outlier amounts of money and outlier amounts of volatility.

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