Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

eff.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

341–350 of 485 posts

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#341

Post by drdec »

mjevans wrote: post #71

The Internet should be Unrated and thus Adults Only by default. Just like public spaces. (Would you allow an 8 year old to wander New York City unattended? Arguments can be made for more controlled spaces but...) Have a website and want the chance for kids to see it? Advertise in the headers that it's moderated and intended to be a given rating. Various indexers can pick that up. Complaints can be forward to relevant…

> Would you allow an 8 year old to wander New York City unattended?

Many people do, in fact, do this:

https://reason.com/2021/06/11/free-range-kids-second-edition...

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#342

Post by eru »

mjevans wrote: post #71

The Internet should be Unrated and thus Adults Only by default. Just like public spaces. (Would you allow an 8 year old to wander New York City unattended? Arguments can be made for more controlled spaces but...) Have a website and want the chance for kids to see it? Advertise in the headers that it's moderated and intended to be a given rating. Various indexers can pick that up. Complaints can be forward to relevant…

> (Would you allow an 8 year old to wander New York City unattended? Arguments can be made for more controlled spaces but...)

Sure, why shouldn't 8 year olds wander a city unattended, and eg use public transport?

I cycled to school way younger than that. And so did many people in the past.

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#343

Post by Der_Einzige »

GauntletWizard wrote: post #66
saurik wrote: post #9

This should be held up as a visceral demonstration of how the "slippery slope" isn't inherently a fallacy, as many oft like to claim: it is merely a form of argument that is easy enough to get wrong--leading to a fallacy when the cause is disconnected--that people have become overly-wary of it, reacting to the premise of the conclusion without even bothering to analyze how steep the slope might be before tuning the i…

They no longer teach Rhetoric at schools. Rhetorical arguments have been completely forgotten and debased in the public mind. Rhetorical arguments are more important than ever in the age of AI, because AI is our attempt to simulate that. Probabilistic AI mimics rhetoric (inexpertly). It uses past knowledge to predict future behavior (rather, just the next token) based on probability. To be clear - I'm not arguing tha…

If you saw what modern formal debate looked like in America, you’d be happy that we abandoned teaching it.

Here’s the beginning of the rabbit hole you need to go down to understand why so many former debaters not only hate the activity but specifically cite it as an example of post-modern neo Marxism:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spreading_(debate)

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#344

Post by eru »

qball wrote: post #112
mjevans wrote: post #71

The Internet should be Unrated and thus Adults Only by default. Just like public spaces. (Would you allow an 8 year old to wander New York City unattended? Arguments can be made for more controlled spaces but...) Have a website and want the chance for kids to see it? Advertise in the headers that it's moderated and intended to be a given rating. Various indexers can pick that up. Complaints can be forward to relevant…

>Adults Only by default. Just like public spaces. This is the attitude that led us to this problem in the first place. >Would you allow an 8 year old to wander New York City unattended? They're at much higher risk of being arrested/abducted by the police than they are anything else. This is a uniquely North American neurosis; this happens every day in every other nation. They take the subway to work/school or walk, l…

> This is a uniquely North American neurosis; this happens every day in every other nation.

No. Eg Australia is also full of helicopter parents.

And even Germany has moved a lot in that direction in recent decades, even if they ain't nearly as bad as the US.

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#345

Post by BlackFly »

isaacremuant wrote: post #318
cosmicgadget wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

99% sure his point was exactly what you said. "Should be done" vs "should be enforced" by the person you demand stay out of your life.

No. Another one who doesn't get it. It shouldn't be done. The problem is that you don't get it. You think that saying "we all agree on X but it's bad for society" gets you to eventually acknowledge there's a safer way to do X, at least partially. I'm saying you shouldn't even pretend the first statement is acceptable and that implementation is the problem . Now, that's very nuanced for some and I'll get the "you're m…

The point you are missing is that he presented what he knew to be norms and used language to indicate that they are norms (should vs must) and you are somehow confused into thinking that he presented them as inalienable facts. Commenters thought that if they pointed out the nuance of normative assertion vs enforcement you would see the distinction but you continue to fail to distinguish a normative assertion from a factual one.

I also disagree with you that widespread agreement on norms is some problematic slippery slope. Failure to distinguish between norms and objectivity as you are doing is what leads to widespread norms being enforced absurdly by a tyranny of the majority.

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#346

Post by nilamo »

Aeolun wrote: post #256
diddid wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think it’s entirely a mentality issue. I think North America created an environment where you wouldn’t want your 8 year old to navigate New York City. I would let my kids wander Tokyo before I would let them wander Chicago. Japan would not tolerate people spitting at and harassing children where Chicago does indeed tolerate that. I’d say ask me how I know but you could probably guess.

Guessing leaves me two options, so was you, or your children that were spit on? Also, what could possibly lead to that happening? Someone upset they were noisy? Or just that they dared show up at all?

You were wrong in both cases! The GP went to Chicago and spit on people just to prove a point /s

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#347

Post by Der_Einzige »

butlike wrote: post #147
dinkblam wrote: post #3

age verification should be backed into the browser and not into websites. parents should be able to access a (password protected) setting in any browser that can exclude some types of websites (like porn). governments should be free to go after any website not respecting that setting. but forcing the age-verification onto websites is just moronic.

Kids have nothing but time and energy to learn about their world, so you get weird things like the children rootkitting your device or "the home computer" on their quest to see salacious corners of the web. As always, parenting starts and stops with the parent. The internet should be open and if the child sees something that upsets them (or makes them question one of their assumptions), it's the parent's responsibili…

I learned that the password my parents used on the computer was “Neo Maxi Zoom Dwebie” by password cracking my windows XP with rainbow tables at like age 11.

I hate the breakfast club and think it’s one of the examples of movies which idolized anti-intellectualism and basically celebrates bullying nerdy types. Sadly ironic of a password choices from my “nerdy” family.

If the rainbow tables didn’t work, I’d have rootkitted/RATed the computer.

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#348

Post by Der_Einzige »

johnnyjeans wrote: post #80
cls59 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then kinds just learn how to download and run an open-source browser produced outside of the country that does not implement the setting on the client side.

I consider that a feature. Working and training problem solving skills and persistence through trial-and-error to the degree required for that kind of thing is great. I feel it's underappreciated in potential that treating a wide swath of these kinds of rules as nothing more than cattle-fences can have a shockingly positive effect. One of the biggest problems that grows with each generation, is how do you get the you…

So the desire to jerk off is the ideal catalyst for being subversive?

I mean it’s not that I disagree with you, but this is what you are saying!!!

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#349

Post by Der_Einzige »

hayst4ck wrote: post #207

Almost no discussion matters as long as Google Analytics/fonts is embedded in almost every website you visit. EFF is looking at individual grains of sand on a beach of surveillance. Pornhub publishes insights on their blog where they include an age/gender/country breakdown of their viewers. That data must come from somewhere, likely google analytics or something like it, which means that there is a thriving surveilla…

It pisses me off the see you accuse them of being spook adjacent when the real “private intelligence” companies are much more mundane and lucrative: they are known as expert networks:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_network

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#350

Post by graemep »

mjevans wrote: post #71

The Internet should be Unrated and thus Adults Only by default. Just like public spaces. (Would you allow an 8 year old to wander New York City unattended? Arguments can be made for more controlled spaces but...) Have a website and want the chance for kids to see it? Advertise in the headers that it's moderated and intended to be a given rating. Various indexers can pick that up. Complaints can be forward to relevant…

I would allow an eight year old to go around most areas of most British cities. When I was a child lots of kids that age came to my school in London by train unaccompanied. Kids that ago go to school unaccompanied in the town i now live in. I let my kids go to some places by themselves not much older, and do quite long journeys from their early teens.
Post reply on HN